Hard cast vs hollow points

Law enforcement does not want to shoot through their target hence the FBI Ballistic Gelatin Testing protocals. Let's put it this way, back in the day when Veral Smith developed Lead Bullets Technology and people like Ross Seyfried started shooting big/dangerous game with hard cast LBTs it was determined, based on experience in the field, that a hot .45 Colt with a LBT hard cast had the same killing power - effect - as the Winchester .300 Magnum and the high speed expanding bullet fans got all worked up. But, penetration testing shows that even modest .45 Colt LBT bullets will out penetrate the expanding bullet from a major magnum caliber by a wide margin. That is why Buffalo Bore and Double Tap have 200 grain flat points in their 10mm line-ups. An expanding 10mm that penetrates 18" won't do much when compared to the flat point which might penetrate three feet. I'm perfectly happy with my
11.5 mm (.45 Colt) shooting a 255 grain hard cast SWC at around 950 FPS. There is very little that round will not do and what it will do, it will do well.
 
fact (please consider carefully)

People who shoot people often do so because they were first shot at, and they wish that activity to cease.
If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ.

They use JHP because that works best.
 
"If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ.

They use JHP because that works best."

With all due respect, I don't believe that for a second. People use what they're given to use. The people that mandate the equipment used are usually administrators. Administrators who are responding to public opinion, following the latest fad or are listening to the expert of the moment.

Did our armed forces (I was a Infantry officer for 10 years) move away from the .45 because the 9mm was better? Are they using ball ammo because it's better?

Look at all the gyrations the FBI went through on what's 'best'. Your local PD probably did the same.

If it won't work for hunting, you shouldn't carry it (IMO). Keith bullets work. For JHP, the only one I load is the XTP (also a great hunting bullet).

If you're going to carry a handgun, take it hunting; you may be surprised at what you learn.
 
Depends on what you're hunting

Saw a guy demonstrate pretty conclusively that a .44magnum 240gr JHP, fired from a Marlin 94, might not do such a good job of penetrating the cartilage, muscle, and bone behind a 200-250lb hog's front shoulder. Hog ran into the brush, and the shooter ended up needing a coup de grace at the base of the skull to put it down. When the hog was butchered, the bullet was found, quite deformed, stuck in the shoulder cartilage.

OTOH, another guy in that group shot a 250lb hog broadside, from about 15yds, with a 12ga slug. Hit it about two ribs back from the front shoulder, midway from chest to spine. That hog also ran off into the brush. When found, it no longer required a coup de grace, as it had bled out. Only lesson learned there was that even killing wounds, from big bullets, may not immediately stop the target.

While people are in the same basic weight class as hogs, our skeleto-muscular structures aren't nearly as tough, and we don't have nearly as much cartilage. JHP tends to work pretty well on human tissues, and the reputable makes penetrate deep enough, reliably.

Ball ammo tends to be popular with militaries because it feeds reliably, rather than for killing efficacy or lack thereof, especially when many militaries have a variety of weapons in any given caliber.

A lot of people in the forum seem to like to quote Marshall and Sanow, although many of their findings are challenged by statisticians and ballisticians. But their findings for .45acp showed stoppage rates around 90% for 230gr JHP, but only around 65% for ball. And that was with 80's vintage JHP, not the new, bonded stuff that actually expands very reliably at lower velocities. Makes one wonder...
 
All good info. Militaries carried ball initially for feed reliability, now that's not really an issue. They continue to carry ball because it's cheap.

Units with 'latitude' in their gear don't carry ball.

My suggestion is if the load/caliber has a proven track record of cleanly killing game in the 200-300 lb. class, you're good to go. And a determined human can be tough as a coffin nail.
 
I am not easily surprised

I used to make our 'local cop ammo'.



"With all due respect, I don't believe that for a second. People use what they're given to use. The people that mandate the equipment used are usually administrators. Administrators who are responding to public opinion, following the latest fad or are listening to the expert of the moment.

Did our armed forces (I was a Infantry officer for 10 years) move away from the .45 because the 9mm was better? Are they using ball ammo because it's better?

Look at all the gyrations the FBI went through on what's 'best'. Your local PD probably did the same.

If it won't work for hunting, you shouldn't carry it (IMO). Keith bullets work. For JHP, the only one I load is the XTP (also a great hunting bullet).

If you're going to carry a handgun, take it hunting; you may be surprised at what you learn"
The military units I was alluding to use 45 ACP 1911s launching JHP bullets.
Many folks tasked with shooting people actually get to choose; really.

And, oddly, those non-military units all decided to choose JHP projectiles. All of them.

I suppose you might be correct, and the optimum choice for shooting people is a flat hardcast (investigate Penn Bullet's marvelous Thunderhead), but IMO the JHP, when chosen with care, and launched appropriately, is considerably more effective and efficient at stopping people.
And that is NOT 'hunting', ay?
 
Hard cast bullets have better penetration in thick skinned animals than HPs which are designed for use on thin skinned humans. The excellent Speer Gold Dot HP performs wonderfully on humans but poorly on heavy animals because it opens up too fast and doesn't penetrate. A hard cast bullet that penetrates well in thick skinned animals acts like ball ammo in humans.
 
That pretty much sums it up. Use HP for humans and HC on animals. If you use a heavy HC on a human it may pay right through him and leave only a minor wound whereas a HP will expand and cause a lot of damage. Much the way bird shot on a shotgun has more of a potential to do close range damage than a slug. If i shot an intruder at close range with the 3" slugs i use it'd probably pass right through them, through my wall and into the neighbors house. Then again I have personally witness people shot at close range with bird shot and lived to tell about it. . they just got peppered pretty bad with some pellets in the lungs. Not nearly the damage i suppose a giant slug would do if it blew a hole through you. But as far as HG bullets go you want the biggest expansion you can if you're protecting yourself from an intruder. HC just wont expand the way HPs will on a thin skinned human whereas on say a bear a HP would probably expand once it hit the surface of the skin and may never ever really penetrate.
 
I'll still stick with factory jhp for my ccw. Since I live in Commifornia, it would be silly for me to use anything but factory loadings given the likely anti-gun bent of any DA and jury...if God forbid I needed to defend myself.

That being said, no reason a "hard cast" bullet wouldn't work. This one is a 185grain Beartooth bullet (.357 over max loading of H110 and a muzzle velocity of approx 1200fps) With it, I've taken a 200# sow at 50 yards broadside and penetration was through and through. Shot placement was a bit forward of the shoulder and obliterated the aorta. The pictured bullet was taken from a rubber mulch bullet trap at 24 inch penetration after denting the 1/4" arresting plate.
Beartooth-1.jpg


Someone mentioned wanting Hornady to load their swagged swc hollow point. I have some bad news on those. They are not as soft as you might think, as they are 5% antimony and are pretty hard. They do not mushroom in the rubber mulch, nor do they deform much into water jugs when loaded around 850fps.
Hornady.jpg


Compare the ornady to this one. Here is a SOFT 15:1 lead:tin Lyman 358156 bullet (non-hollow point) fired into the mulch at 850 fps.
20080926003.jpg


Finally, once you step up to magnum velocities I doubt it would mater if the round used is a jacketed hollow point or just a lead hollow point. On the left are 2 different factory .357 hollow points and the right is a hand poured Lymann 358156 hollow pointed...all were driven between 1200-1300fps and penetrated about 15-18 inches in the mulch and expanded to .5 to .6" (far left, fiochi, didn't fare as well)
FioccivsMagtechvshomebrew.jpg
 
"If XYZ worked best they would use XYZ.

They use JHP because that works best."

With all due respect, I don't believe that for a second. People use what they're given to use. The people that mandate the equipment used are usually administrators. Administrators who are responding to public opinion, following the latest fad or are listening to the expert of the moment.

Did our armed forces (I was a Infantry officer for 10 years) move away from the .45 because the 9mm was better? Are they using ball ammo because it's better?
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Militaries and police don't spontaneously change equipment for kicks and giggles. In the case of the military, FMJ ammo has been retained for political reasons (Hauge convention) and 9mm was chosen for logistical reasons (NATO standard).

In the case of police ammo, HP's were verboten for many years. For decades, the most common police ammo was either LRN or LSWC as JHP's were politically incorrect. Many police departments spent years, decades even, trying to get policies and perceptions changed so that their officers could carry JHP's. I find myself wondering why a police department, especially one run by bean counters, would fight an uphill political battle to issue more expensive ammunition if it offered no advantage over the relatively cheap, politically correct ammo they already had.
 
Someone mentioned wanting Hornady to load their swagged swc hollow point. I have some bad news on those. They are not as soft as you might think, as they are 5% antimony and are pretty hard. They do not mushroom in the rubber mulch, nor do they deform much into water jugs when loaded around 850fps.
Click to expand...
I'm curious is that velocity from a chronograph alliant data shows 3.5gr only goin 814 from a 6" barrel.I know from my own experiance the 240gr 44 non hollow point will deform, as much as the ones your showing from a 357, between 850 and 900 fps.
 
I find myself wondering why a police department, especially one run by bean counters, would fight an uphill political battle to issue more expensive ammunition if it offered no advantage over the relatively cheap, politically correct ammo they already had.
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to bet that it was as much the marketing departments of the ammo companies as it was the politicos that fought the uphill battle.
 
Quote:
I find myself wondering why a police department, especially one run by bean counters, would fight an uphill political battle to issue more expensive ammunition if it offered no advantage over the relatively cheap, politically correct ammo they already had.

I'd be willing to bet that it was as much the marketing departments of the ammo companies as it was the politicos that fought the uphill battle.
Click to expand...

The police were fighting that battle too. A big part of the overpenetration scare was perpetuated by police agencies in order to justify JHP ammo. This is evidenced from an article straight from the FBI (Mods, if this violates the new copyright rules, please feel free to delete the following excerpt):

The fear of overpenetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition.
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http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf (firearmstactical.com)
 
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