Handloads for self defense?!
- Thread starter knzn
- Start date
Ayoob swore in a magazine article soem years ago that he HAD seen it cause problems in court, in cases where he had been called as an expert witness on behalf of the armed citzen. The biggest problem was that opposing counsel could claim that the defendant made his own ammo to increase its "killing power, because he wanted to kill somebody"
That said, other people have raised doubts about the claim, and asked if indeed it ever has come up. I have not ever seen any writings by Ayoob stating in which cases the subject came up.
Typically I'll carry Hydra-shoks or Corbons in my 1911's - they are known to work fine, and the handloading thing becomes a non-issue. Were I carrying something else, I might reconsider and load 'em up.
That said, other people have raised doubts about the claim, and asked if indeed it ever has come up. I have not ever seen any writings by Ayoob stating in which cases the subject came up.
Typically I'll carry Hydra-shoks or Corbons in my 1911's - they are known to work fine, and the handloading thing becomes a non-issue. Were I carrying something else, I might reconsider and load 'em up.
Double Naught Spy
New member
All I would like to see out of Ayoob regarding this topic is an actual court case where handloads caused a case to go against a good guy in a self defense shooting. Similarly, I would like to see examples of where shooting a race gun went against a good guy in a SD shooting, where a lighteded trigger did, where using what the cops carry justified a self defense shooting, etc.
In a self defense shooting, the liability is in actually pulling the trigger and shooting another person. It is not in the type of gun one carries, ammo, modifications, etc.
Ayoob makes a good bit of money writing his 'expert' legal opinions in magazines and books. That is pretty good for a person who isn't a legal expert and isn't even a lawyer. Yes, he is a cop but being a cop does not make a person a legal expert (as I have had cops tell me). Yes, Ayoob has a lot of court experience, but not as a legal expert, only as a witness, a professional witness in most cases.
Funny, our local DA who is a legal expert does not agree with the claims made by Ayoob on handloads v. factory, triggers, etc.
In a self defense shooting, the liability is in actually pulling the trigger and shooting another person. It is not in the type of gun one carries, ammo, modifications, etc.
Ayoob makes a good bit of money writing his 'expert' legal opinions in magazines and books. That is pretty good for a person who isn't a legal expert and isn't even a lawyer. Yes, he is a cop but being a cop does not make a person a legal expert (as I have had cops tell me). Yes, Ayoob has a lot of court experience, but not as a legal expert, only as a witness, a professional witness in most cases.
Funny, our local DA who is a legal expert does not agree with the claims made by Ayoob on handloads v. factory, triggers, etc.
"he (Ayoob) is a cop"
Not to get into Ayoob bashing but he's an auxilary officer in a very small town in NH. How small? It doesn't even show up on some Rand McNally maps.
I, too, would like to see some court cases where handloads made a difference. I did shooting investigations and taught shooting investigations for many years. Whether handloads or not was never a factor in consideration. The only time we even cared what kind of ammo was used was when trying to place a certain kind of ammo in a shooter's possession to tie them to the crime.
I've heard those same stories and I've continually asked for someone to come up with a case cite. I've researched it ad nauseum and can't find any. If someone has a case I'd like to read it so I could include it in my lesson plan. I've heard that Ayoob talks of a case but I've never read, found, or talked to anyone who says he has identified the cite.
Not to get into Ayoob bashing but he's an auxilary officer in a very small town in NH. How small? It doesn't even show up on some Rand McNally maps.
I, too, would like to see some court cases where handloads made a difference. I did shooting investigations and taught shooting investigations for many years. Whether handloads or not was never a factor in consideration. The only time we even cared what kind of ammo was used was when trying to place a certain kind of ammo in a shooter's possession to tie them to the crime.
I've heard those same stories and I've continually asked for someone to come up with a case cite. I've researched it ad nauseum and can't find any. If someone has a case I'd like to read it so I could include it in my lesson plan. I've heard that Ayoob talks of a case but I've never read, found, or talked to anyone who says he has identified the cite.
Mannlicher
New member
Gewehr says: Instead of just reading Ayoob, I attended his LFI Course #1. And will be attending LFI Course #2 in the not-too-distant future. How's that for armchair quarterbacking? Let me guess, you'd probably tell Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch that he doesn't know jack about gun tactics, too."
....spending money with Ayoob does not make him any more correct than he was before you attended his course.
........and no, I like Clint actually. Good guy with, from what I hear, an exellent school.
Going to a weekend course at one of the popular training schools does not make the attendee an 'operator'. It does seem to imbue the attendee with an almost mystical reverence for the instructor though. Thats not to be misconstrued as my thinking good training is a waste of money, but you have to keep things in perspecetive.
....spending money with Ayoob does not make him any more correct than he was before you attended his course.
........and no, I like Clint actually. Good guy with, from what I hear, an exellent school.
Going to a weekend course at one of the popular training schools does not make the attendee an 'operator'. It does seem to imbue the attendee with an almost mystical reverence for the instructor though. Thats not to be misconstrued as my thinking good training is a waste of money, but you have to keep things in perspecetive.
Not long ago I talked to a local judge. He was campaining for reelection. I asked him about using reloaded ammo. His opinion was he would be more concerned why you shot someone than what you shot them with. Of course as a side note is pro gun and use reload shot shells. Just make sure you know your local laws.
JD DRIVER
JD DRIVER
Double Naught Spy
New member
And what about our local laws? Are you suggesting there are local laws that say you can't use handloads for self defense?
Some one with a way to use Lexis/Nexis search engine at a law school , where they get the subscription for it's use , can find any case law on this real fast. ( Spent 2 hours on the net and can't find anything , I have some in's at a law school , maybe I can get some info later ? 
)
)Samuel2001
New member
If all you have is re-loads, well thats all you have! At least you'll be alive and breathing. Civil liability is the least of your problems when the moment arives! And it's probably better to survive, and to tell your story anyway! 
"I'd rether be tried by twelve, than carried by six" or something like that.
"I'd rether be tried by twelve, than carried by six" or something like that.