handguns: poor tools for crisis resolution?

Good thread. It is important to be aware that the outcome of real armed confronatation is far from cut and dried.

Stats can show anything. Remember- only people who made it to the trauma center are counted. Many made in straight to the morgue.

All said - handguns are ideal in terms of their ability to be carried. If you can bring a shotgun to the fight, by all means do so. Knives are far mor effective than most people give them credit for. The average person with a knife is a major threat. A trained knife fighter one of the worst threats.

Erik

Erik
 
Thoughts on Knife fighting:

You DON'T wanna ever get into one. Trust me on this. You will get cut a lot. Its a LOT harder to explain "I stabbed the Mother****** until he stopped" and have it look like a self defense case, whereas emptying your hi-cap in a moment of stress is understandable. I can't think of a SINGLE case of 20+ stab wounds looking "defensive" in fact... many prosecuters look at that as evidence of "rage" and you MIGHT get to plead murder 2.

There is a big difference here in talking what is appropriate in military (survival) and civilian use. MOST knives over 3" ARE considered concealed weapons.

Other factors:

You decide to take a late evening jog in your usual sweats and watch cap carrying your usual gun.. or your 6 inch fighting knife??? you usually carry a flashlight?? add a roll of tape or length of cord and suddenly you are in posssession of a "rape kit". It is possible you will walk away from an encounter with police with nothing but your pride bruised from carrying a gun.. whereas a knife might get you taken downtown.

It takes WILL to use a knife. there is no such thing as "defensive knive use" all knife use is offensive. It often does not stop until someone cannot walk away. Adrenaline and fight/flight can add to the confusion as to 'when" its over. There is a difference between a kata (or form) that teaches defense against knives, disarming etc, and actually wrapping your fingers around the leather Intentionally. One is organized and controlled.. the other is wild eyed and free-form.

There is an old saying to "never take a knife to a gunfight".. there is another that says "NEVER go to a knife fight".

If you are Intentionally going into harms' way for ANY reason take a shotgun.Unless you are substantially trained in HTH or knife fighting a good "stay safe" attitude and a handgun are your best bets for walking away from a situation.

Dr.Rob
 
this was a study done on an informal basis by a group of E.D. doctors, nurses, xray techs, and pathologists that were interested in the terminal effects of handgun projectiles. i stumbled onto it because i was working at that medical center as an xray tech and was asked to localize bullets via radiographs on dead victims and radiograph damage done to live victims. the term "one for the book" i found had more meaning at work than i thought. we saw numerous gunshot/knife traumas every night and weekend and while we are not L.A. or Houston we see more than our share of this type of violence. the satistics were gathered at first for a potential paper to be published on the same but that project was abandoned due to difficulty keeping documentation on all of the cases. this is the falicy of Marshall/Sanow if they have documentation (that no one can read) on all the cases that they say they have then they must have a warehouse rented some where. even basic record keeping bogged down even this small project. after that they followed the numbers out of curiosity rather than academics. we are seeing over ten years of data represented here. i presented these facts as a method of stimulating debate on and creating awareness of what i agree is a problem among most gun carrying people. a handgun is not a magic wand that can be waved and tactical problems solved. on TV handguns blow up cars, drop BG's instantly and make everything right with the world all in 90 minutes. in truth they are tools, difficult to master and hardly the "atomic hand grenade" most gun owners think. the flip side of that is that handguns can and do cause a large amount of death, crippling injury and suffering. as an xray tech i have followed cases from the E.D. to the O.R. to recovery and follow up therapy or the morge. some off the worst gunshot injuries i have seen were accidents and self inflicted. remember that none of the people involved here had any other motive than the spirit of inquiry. They have not published because they know as Marshal and Sanow don't seem to, that satistics and supposistion gathered from them is foggy at best. i feel that you can see trends and draw conclusions in broad general terms but to say that one load is clearly superior to another because of my stats or yours is a load of bull. if i hear someone say anything about "one shot stops" it makes me wonder if they have bought into the fairy story.
P.S. i can not list any contributors names or the name of the medical center as all this is not published and i kinda lifted all this on the sly from work.
keep thinking and practicing

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
 
Many of the posts here are excellent. Pluspinc hit some thing on the head, and for once I agree with his post %100.

I especially find applicable his statement here about how bad guys play a role in what happens (and many people do not traing with this in regard). This is such a true statement when applied to most martial arts. People learn in these corner karate marts how to disable an attacker if he stands a certain way and punches you with his feet standing just so, and his arm extended just so, etc etc. Bad guys have a role in the events too. They don't cooperate and they don't react in any one specific way. You can't train to expect them to react a certain way. This is how "black belts" get their butt kicked when a barroom brawler just tackles them and pummels them. They "never learned a counter to that move".

Regarding knife, I have been training in (mostly) Kali for many years. I KNOW that I am far deadlier with a knife as long as I can get contact. Honestly, it does not even take a fancy knife, with just a boxcutter I can shred every major extremal artery on a person in about two seconds and they will bleed out just about instantly after that. All it takes is a $.99 box cutter, contact distance and a matter of seconds.

But, I carry a gun as my primary weapon and a knife more as a utility tool and a backup. There are many reasons for this. Some of them are: Guns are more intimidating to criminals. It does not make sense, but it is a fact. The gun is regarded as king on the street. If you pull a knife, they will likely challenge you and think they can take you. You pull a gun, and criminals (usually) make haste. I have experienced both of these and seen them to be true. The whole object is to get the person to desist without getting youself into legal hassles. If you can get them to desist by diplaying a gun, then you are best off. Of course it goes without saying that you do not display a weapon until and uless you have need to use it, with full intent. But I would still rather pull a gun and have someone run off right before I pull the trigger, than pull a knife and have the person grab an improvised weapon and challenge me. That is what I have seen happen.
Also, guns are versatile. they allow you to engage multiple targets, and give you versatility of range. You can engage target at distance and through cover. There is just a lot of versatility there.
Legally, you are better off if you use a gun, and that is just a (sad?) fact. Knives are very frowned upon for myriad reasons.

On the other hand, I just saw a video of a man who was shot through his chest with a .25 auto. Penetration was more than adaquate because the bullet was found lodged under the skin of his back, he was shot just near the left nipple....yes, that means the bullet went through just near his heart, and definitly his left lung.
The police and paramedics had to wrestle him into the ambulance. He refused to sit down. He complained that it hurt, but it only made him mad and he was strutting around yelling, kicking trash cans and getting more violent, not less.
Since the bullet went right through, there is no doubt that penetration was adequate and placement was excellent, right near his heart and lungs. One could say that the diameter of the bullet was too small, but I don't see that a larger diameter bullet would have made THAT much difference. The guy still had a hole through his chest.
This man was in no way disabled, in fact he was more violent after being shot through the chest.
Just be aware of how ineffective handguns are at STOPPING people. It is easy to see why cops empty so many rounds into bad guys. They are shooting until the BG stops, and that apparently takes a lot of time and bullets. Sometimes, even placement does not help that much. What's the solution? Head shots? Lots of bullets? (this is a rhetorical question)

Personally, I have faced both knife and gun, and I am still here so I guess neither one was more effective. The knife injured me more, but due to my training I would rather face the knife because WITH MY TRAINING (this does not apply to everyone) I handled the knife well. Next time I may not be so lucky. But anyway, any fool can pull a trigger and any fool can get midieval on you and go primitive with a knife. Both are deadly in untrained hands, and more deadly in trained hands. But, at contact distance, the knife is far more effective if a person's goal is purely to physically incapacitate their adversary.

Another thing to think about regarding the knife is this: I you get shot in a bad place such as even through the heart, and get to a hospital right away, you have a good chance of surviving. If you get slashed in a really bad place, like the carotid artery, it does not matter how fast you get to the emergency room, you are going to die.
Blood loss causes physical incapacitation, and knives cause much faster blood loss. The knife is not only deadlier but a faster incapacitator.
 
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