handguns: poor tools for crisis resolution?

R

riddleofsteel

New member
The following is a condensation of an informal study done by the staff of a level one trauma center in the southeastern U.S.
Thesis: Handguns are for the most part underpowered and are poor tools for close combat or crisis resolution.
Fact: Trained LEO's in major metro areas, percentage of shots fired that hit targets in crisis situations..........30%
Fact: Percentage of people we observed that die from all handgun wounds including multiple hits (other than those that die immediately).........24%
Fact: Average amount of time a person wounded by handgun remains mobile and/or alert.........5 minutes+
Fact: Primary factor affecting percentage of handgun deaths....shot hitting a vital area...Primary factor in control of how much damage a bullet does......PWC (perminant wound cavity)
Fact: PWC is governed by the size or caliber of the bullet or the size of the expanded hollowpoint.
Fact: Percentage of hollowpoints recovered from victims in a non-expanded condition...38% (many hollowpoints that did not expand may have passed thru victim)
Fact: Primary factor in the expansion of a hollowpoint......velocity and bullet design (unexpanded hollowpoints were almost always plugged with fibers or from short barrel guns)
Fact: Primary factors controlling velocity.....caliber and barrel length

Conclusions: Carry the largest caliber handgun you can handle. It should have the longest barrel you can conceal. Cut handle size but not barrel length. If you are shooting a smaller caliber and are going to depending on a hollowpoint to expand the barrel length factor becomes critical. Practice until you can cluster hits in a vital area.

Fact: Percentage of people that die from deep stab wounds..........35%
Six percent higher than those that die from an assortment of handgun wounds from different handgun ammo types.
Fact: At close range (inside 21 feet) the sharp blade can be more deadly than the gun. It is quick to bring into play, silent and can cause huge PWC's. A large blade can sever limbs and stab deeply to vital organs causing bleed out and death even faster than a gun.

The current trend is toward carrying a gun. Many people are counting on small, short barreled guns of marginal caliber for self protection. We feel that more emphasis should be place on non-lethal crisis resolution skills. Learning to use hand to hand skills with emphasis on grappling and ground fighting. Use of chemical and impact weapons are also useful skills. A Kubaton and pepper spray should be part of your carry gear. Finally if you must shoot it should be with the largest caliber, highest velocity round you can shoot consistently to a vital area. That often means using what amounts to a full size gun with a long barrel. If that is not practical, accuracy becomes critical.

Not my study but it is food for thought.
riddleofsteel

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
 
I would have to agree on the statement on how deadly a knife attacks can be and are. Many people underestimate the leathal properties of knifes and how fast they can be deployed from someone properly trained in there use.

This also shows [imho] why large caliber handguns ie.. [45acp] are the best for self defense, and that proper selection of ammo is critical when choosing for whatever handgun is chosen for self defense.
 
There's an old saying about lies, damned lies and statistics, or has anyone not yet seen the Dale Towert stopping power page.

Also, I doubt that the Kubaton and pepper spray have very good kill rates, all 3 are simply different forms of deterrant. We ALL know that handguns are basically anaemic even the .45ACP +P yawn, yawn, but just a couple of personal notes here :

1. If my handgun deters my attacker either through fear or temporary incapacitation I'm happy.

2. My object is to survive not to kill, if that is the unfortunate by-product for my attacker then so be it.

3. When they design adequate muzzle porting and Novak sights for the 6" naval gun, and I can get a pair of pants large enough for an IWB carry I'll be the first customer. Even then I suspect someone will be wounded by one and live to spoil the one shot stop percentage.

This is intended as a balancing point of view not a criticism, I'm sure the survey is perfectly credible just like all the others ;)

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A Person Is Smart
But People Are Stupid

Mike H
 
This is why I now carry one of my full size 9MM pistols,and not my .380 Makarov. I now have pants and shorts with big enough pockets to hide a Walther P99, or a Ruger P95. An IWB holster lets me carry my Taurus PT92 quite comfortably. There is no reason why anyone should carry a mouse gun as a primary weapon, if they have a full size service caliber auto available.

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Glocks may come, and Glocks may go, but WALTHERS are FOREVER!!!


Off my meds (quit smoking), armed to the teeth, and loose on an unsuspecting society!!!
 
I would put a high emphasis on my personal ability to hit major organs/blood vessels/nerve centers in a timely manner under stress at moving targets, for starters.

In a nutshell, the gun without skill is next to useless. Skill doesn't include just ability to shoot, either. If you don't know how to use one Alertness and crisis management are huge parts.

Same can be said for a knife: mindless cutting/slashing/stabbing may not do the job.

Hope that makes sense.

Edmund
 
what i got from the study was that you can not just buy a gun , carry it and obtain self defense. there is no magic caliber , gun type or barrel length. you must train, learn crisis resolution techniques, learn to stay alert, learn non lethal deterent techniques and finally learn if the flag goes up to hit vitals and end the conflict quickly and in your favor. i talked to one of the doctors involved and he told me that in his opinion most of us that carry live with a false sense of security. if you think that just carrying a gun with no other training will save you against a detirmined attacker at close range you will probably bleed at best, die at the worst.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
 
A quote from Col. Jeff Cooper -
"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed anymore than owning a piano makes you a musician"

As some of the other posts have indicated, you need to be able to use the tool, whatever it happens to be.
 
Trained LEO's in major metro areas, percentage of shots fired that hit targets in
crisis situations..........30%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you look close at 21 feet or LESS the miss rate is somewhat higher and if you look at a very wide and large amounts of shots you get closer to 85% or more and remember, police frequently UNDER report the number of shots fired. Even with that VERY optimistic report the miss rate is abhorant. It sure does exist to the point it has to be addressed and not ignored.

Fact: Percentage of people we observed that die from all handgun wounds including
multiple hits (other than those that die immediately).........24%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A very believeable figure. If you include just ONE shot then you get closer to 14% or so as others have reported. It sure isn't a magic wand.

Fact: Average amount of time a person wounded by handgun remains mobile and/or alert.........5 minutes+
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I would say that is pretty close. After that amount of time things slow down and de-escalate and the reality of being shot works in. Not very comforting is it? And it doesn't support the "one shot" stuff very well either. Darned medical types aren't reading gun magazines.

Fact: Primary factor affecting percentage of handgun deaths....shot hitting a vital
area...Primary factor in control of how much damage a bullet does......PWC (perminant
wound cavity)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Better word is PLACEMENT. Let's not confuse it. Make it simple. PLACEMENT!!!

Fact: PWC is governed by the size or caliber of the bullet or the size of the expanded
hollowpoint.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That means DIAMETER before or after any expansion.

Fact: Percentage of hollowpoints recovered from victims in a non-expanded condition...38% (many hollowpoints that did not expand may have passed thru victim)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We have found it closer to 50% but even 38% or anything in between makes it clear those Corbon's Triton's etc are NOT magic and regardless of manufacturer, a HP is no magic. That is why the NYPD use of FMJ slugs for almost a decade didn't show any serious problems. The bum rap the .38 special got from RNL wasn't about bullets. Folks don't like to talk about the failure of those hollowpoints. Between those that miss and those that don't expand, it isn't a pretty picture. Thus, MORE responsibility to the shooter to hit what they shoot at and we don't like that one.

Fact: Primary factor in the expansion of a hollowpoint......velocity and bullet design(unexpanded hollowpoints were almost always plugged with fibers or from short barrel guns)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't forget damage from hitting belts, buttons etc., and bone. Also they can fill with tissue debris or develop a debris field ahead of the slug and not expand. Also they need to meet enough resistanc and that can be difficult in flesh.
GREAT POST!! But getting shooters to figure out what it means is another issue. The advertising budgets are getting cranked up another notch and the printing presses are rolling to tell us it isn't that way in the real world. Bet you don't see a word on this in a gun rag. Past such reports were buried.
 
That is why I carry always a 1911 full size even it is heavy. For the 1911 is designed for FMJ bullets so I am not bothered much for the hollow points. I cannot just rember it was said by one writer, the .45 diameter is already big enough so we don't need further expansion or have it feed by a HP.

For the knife, yes it is dependable if the user has good training to it.

But always remember, gun is still number one Deterrent to any BG or attacker.

I disregard all weapons but not a hand-gun.

A very realistic posts.

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
I always carry a knife, whether or not I carry a handgun. I feel knives are also a good deterrent to a fight, and in many cases may be the ONLY means you have of defending yourself besides using your fists. Most attacks are surprise attacks, and you may only have good access to your knife.

I carry a microtec SOCUM(manual), or sometimes a Benchmade AFCK(manual) or reflex auto.

However, I do like handguns, and always have one in my car if not on my person.
 
Interesting thread, guys.
Some time ago, I was taking karate training from a black belt. This guy was about 5'6" 130 pounds to my 5'10" 200 pounds. Wiry and tough as heck this guy was. He was so quick he could walk up and put anyone down instantly even if that student was ready for him. You wouldn't know it just from looking at him. That taught me a lot concerning appearances. That guy appeared harmless and even helpless, but the opposite was true. He could kick my butt in a heartbeat and we both knew it. Good thing he was a good guy.
If a BG were to attack me with a club/knife/blunt object, etc., I shall immediately believe he knows not only how to use it, but will use it. If I decide to physically oppose him, what's to say he can't kick my butt and do his intended harm regardless. Then I get clubbed/stabbed/clobbered anyway, with absolutely no guarantee I will escape unscathed. That's where a CCW comes in.
Like Mike H says, and I agree, my sole object is to survive the encounter. If the BG's health or well being is affected in a detrimental fashion, he should have considered the consequenses to his actions beforehand.
I do not enjoy carrying a handgun for defensive purposes, it's significance saddens me somewhat. But, I understand the necessity. Just as a seat belt is no guarantee I would survive an auto accident, A CCW is no guarantee I would survive a violent encounter. Knowing this, I drive defensively, and I guess you could call it living defensively, or consciously avoiding situations which may escalate into something nasty.
However, I agree with Clint Smith's mind set. I have no intention of being food...

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johnnyb
A slow hit beats a fast miss.
 
Recently, I began carrying my SOG Seal Knife. With years and years of martial arts training and four solid years of Ranger training, I am quite proficient with a knife. I know that if a BG is within 4 ft of me, I could either:

A. Disarm him easily
B. Slice his throat before he knows it
C. Break his kneecaps

At close range, I will always rely on my fists, feet, or a knife over a handgun.

Size is deceiving. I am only 5'5" 115 lbs and I would not hesitate for a second to take on anybody bigger than me. Does it mean I am made of steel? Hell no, that's why I have a CCW and carry a .45
It just means DO NOT underestimate your opponent. You could end up with a rude suprise. If any of you TFLers live around the PA area, I would be more than happy to show you a few outstanding moves. However, formal CQC is definitely worth while.

Stay safe and have a nice day.

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Svt
RKBA!
Member, Veterans of Foreign Wars, NRA, GOA
My Website

"Rangers Lead the Way"
 
While I claim no expertise in knife fighting like your considerable skills, I do have a couple of observations. For most people who get into a knife fight, they are going to be hurt badly. Nobody wins in a knfe fight. Meerly survive. It is too up close and personal not to. Shoot, that is why the handgun was invented. Secondly, while a knife never runs out of bullets, you have to get close to effectively use it. While a knife may deter some bad guys, it is the weapon of choice for many. Thirdly, while I have seen folks that can effectively hide a large knife on them, in most instances they are prohibited by law from being over a certain size (usually in the 3-4 inch category). Concealed carry permit laws cover handguns- not knives. The bowie knife was banned throughout most of the United States because of it's deadliness when compared against the primitive handguns of the day. Many states prohibit the carry of knives above a certain size in public unless engaged in hunting activities. But when repeating firearms became more reliable, people switched to them because of their effectiveness and the requirment for less training. Remember the old quote about Sam Colt making all men equal. While small knives can be deadly, it usually takes training that most people are not willing to undergo to become effective fighters. Fourthly, if I have to get into a situation where I have to fight for my life, a gun will always be my first choice of weapons, if I can deploy it. Sure, if you are the bad guy, you are pre-disposed to use massive violence to achieve your ends. That is why when I am out and about, I am always in condition yellow and looking for potential trouble spots to avoid. That is why most of us carry not only a gun, but a knife as well. When I think of conflict resolution, I usually think of ways to settle differences without violence or the threat of violence. Once the threat has been transmitted, it goes into the theatre of deterence and defense. Gun, knife, gun, knive. I'll take the gun and give you the knife. Now if you elect to go nuke right away, it really does not matter what I have if I allow you to get into that 21 foot bubble; nor for that matter, what you have if you elect to close the distance and I am not prepared in advance with knife or pistol. While I am not arguing that the blade is not an effective self defense tool, I do not believe it to be the most effecive, especially as we get older. Lastly, for most of us the knife does not allow us the needed ability retreat at a safe distance. In the military they call it disengagement- to maintain seperation while beating a hasty retreat as povided by law. Your observations on caliber size and speed are excellent, but with some of the new frangible rounds being introduced, somewhat dated in that marginal calibers of yester year are proving to be effective fight stoppers. Magsafe, Beesafe, RBCD are giving the smaller caliber weapons the effectiveness previously found only in large caliber weapons for the reasons you mention, and reliabilty has never been better; plus they are just as easy or easier to hide as a knife. Just some thoughts. Remeber the the french lost the battle for France, because they failed to take into account the improvements in mobility and battlefield communications, ie technological innovations. That is why I never pooh pooh someone elses ideas out of hand nor do I reject your observations and your beliefs. It is reasoned debate and observation that usually provide innovation and I thank you for both.
 
IMHO, the best strategy is to be cnnscious of your environment and so AVOID crises. If that fails for any reason, an armed citizen has a different objective than a cop. Cops must pursue and capture perps, while I only need to disengage safely. If the gun scares them off, OK. If it's necessary to fire, most of the above comments become part of the recipe. Have an effective weapon, such as a .357 Mag, .45 ACP, etc. Use efficent expanding ammo. Be skilled enough to hit major organs or nerve centers. Be ready to fire a follow-up shot. It's all pistolcraft.

As for the low hit percentages cops show, does this include rounds fired to suppress hostile fire, or to cover the tactical movements of other LEO's?



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Dave
Deep in the Florida Swamps
 
Yes, a handgun IS inadequate; a shotgun is FAR better. But, like a Leatherman tool, a handgun can always be on you. You wouldn't want to overhaul an engine with a Leatherman tool, but if you're broken down on the side of the road, they can likely help you out, used correctly.

Likewise with a pistol. You wouldn't go looking for a fight with one, but having one on you when a fight starts can likely allow you to resolve the crises. It's about proper employment of an inadequate tool.

+++++++++++++++++++++

BTW, riddleofsteel, it's usually expected that when you list a bunch of "facts" such as above, you give a source citatation. Where do you get your information?

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
The miss rate is based on 21 feet or LESS. The closer the target the higher the miss rate. Easy to understand why that is.
Also a knife does something pretty simple. It can cause massive blood loss with ease. I have some pictures of actual slashings and I'd post them but we'd have a mass rebellion. Self-defense isn't pretty. I have faced some knives and in all honesty at arms length I'd prefer a gun. It has a limit to how much damage it can do. A knife never runs out of ammunition. How many think of that one? ALL knives regardless of type or design are unlimited on capacity. A Mexican cop told me that once and I thought his logic was pristine. You don't even think of "double tapping" with a knife. You do what you do until the intended target changes colors to your satisfaction. That logic should extend to guns as well.
Also don't get hung up on what YOU will do. The bad guy has some plans of his/her own and they may not be what you want to face. Don't assume it will be a fair fight with rules and borders.
 
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