Handguns, Hollowpoints, and Critters

Hey, the dude killed a Grizzly with 9mm hollow points :)

Kidding aside, I run my dogs in the sticks and for this work I have either a stainless 357, 4" Ruger Security Six or a single action Blackhawk 4 5/8" in 45 Colt

168 Grain Keith type semi wad cutters in the 357 and 270 grain same type bullet in the 45. They are cast for slightly higher than mid-range and are reloads... For both I use Unique powder. I got my bullets from Montana Bullet Works and I don't know if he is still in business.

John Linebaugh opined that a 250-270 grain, hard cast, semi wadcutter 45 Colt loaded with about 9.5 grains of Unique would shoot length wise through an Elk at 100 yards. Elmer Keith, John Wooters and others also recommended this type of load for almost any game in N America

My mistake- Linebaugh claims that a .45 Colt load with a 260 G Keith cast bullet at 900 fps will shoot length wise through an antelope or mule deer at 100 yards, not elk as I stated earlier.
 
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Hollow points become marginal if they're driven too fast and fail to penetrate properly, so there is some truth that slower can be better depending on the hollow point used. Often hardcast is used so that there is no chance of poor penetration. I'm a .40 and .44 guy, to me the .40 can do anything the 10mm can, realistically and has taken deer, hogs, black bear and even moose, so anything smaller is no issue. The .44 is my go to hunting handgun but I have no issues with using the .40, the biggest game I hunt is deer. I would consider the .40, .45, 10mm and 357 Mag to be similar in their capabilities, if you handload for them you can run very specific bullets they will all get the job done on quite a few critters, really. I like .40 best because I find it to be the best blend of power and size, it comes oddly close to full on 10mm but from a 9mm sized gun. When I'm in the revolver mood, I'll use the .44 Mag (even Special).
 
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I've come around on .40 S&W. My problem was trying it with compact polymer handguns where the snap was uncomfortable. In larger guns with better recoil mitigation, like the USP or PX4 Storm, it's actually a great round. When I carry .40 S&W, it's usually with 165-grain hollow-points.

Something like that is plenty for around town and most any critters I come across if I take a spontaneous walk into the woods. I'm just interested in the boundaries of where it stops being "plenty" or "acceptable".

Thanks for all the posts so far. I hope to read more as they come in.
 
Ruger45LC said:
Hollow points become marginal if they're driven too fast and fail to penetrate properly, so there is some truth that slower can be better depending on the hollow point used. Often hardcast is used so that there is no chance of poor penetration. I'm a .40 and .44 guy, to me the .40 can do anything the 10mm can, realistically and has taken deer, hogs, black bear and even moose, so anything smaller is no issue. The .44 is my go to hunting handgun but I have no issues with using the .40, the biggest game I hunt is deer. I would consider the .40, .45, 10mm and 357 Mag to be similar in their capabilities, if you handload for them you can run very specific bullets they will all get the job done on quite a few critters, really. I like .40 best because I find it to be the best blend of power and size, it comes oddly close to full on 10mm but from a 9mm sized gun. When I'm in the revolver mood, I'll use the .44 Mag (even Special).
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Keith type LSWCs of the classic Lyman 429421 mold for the 44 Spl and 44 Mag, as well as an even heavier similar mold for the 45 Colt are killers.

The sharp, square shoulder on the lead band cuts a deep and definite wound channel if the bullet is cast right...and also, supposedly causes effective trauma in game animals although they are generally non-expanding

A bullet that doesn't penetrate to the vitals is not much good.
 
For the longest time I carried .380 ACP exclusively as a primary Self-Defense cartridge, but over the years there have been increasing reports of wild animals coming out of the woods surrounding the suburban area in which I reside.
After hearing a rather disturbing story from my mother regarding a boar sighting while she was walking her dogs one Summer night, I decided that I needed to carry something more potent.

I did a lot of research into the subject and decided that I wanted to carry a semiautomatic pistol chambered in a cartridge with a larger caliber bullet. At first I was dead set on a 10mm pistol, but ultimately changed my mind once that I learned that the vast majority of factory loaded 10mm ammo is in the "10mm FBI" (aka 10mm Lite) configuration which is basically just .40 S&W in a longer case. So that left me with either .40 S&W or .45 ACP, to which I had mostly settled on .40 S&W since that's what Fish & Game was using and .40 S&W penetrates deeper on average. In the end, the decision was practically made for me when a LNIB SW40VE showed up in the display case at my LGS for $199.

I know that some folks will inevitably fault me for carrying anything less than .44 Magnum, but I don't live in Grizzly country, the largest animal sighting in my area was a wild boar, and while .44 Magnum may be better for four-legged predators, I'd rather carry a pistol packed with 15 rounds of .40 S&W than 6 rounds of .44 Magnum if facing two-legged predators.
 
Forte S+W said:
... I know that some folks will inevitably fault me for carrying anything less than .44 Magnum, but I don't live in Grizzly country ... I'd rather carry a pistol packed with 15 rounds of .40 S&W than 6 rounds of .44 Magnum if facing two-legged predators.
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Not at all. In fact, that's sort of the point here. I was hoping to bridge the gap between "best caliber for bad guys" and "best caliber for wild animals".

For human threats, 9mm seems to work pretty well and is fairly convenient to carry. I've seen a lot of arguments that you don't need more than 9mm for bad guys and that any gains with more powerful calibers are marginal. Without going down that rabbit hole, I've wondered how the margins change with different animals.

Personally, I think .40 S&W and .357 Sig might have something to offer here. Both offer a little more oomph. Both are still within reason for everyday carry around town. Thinking about "around town", there are a lot of us who live in suburban or semi-rural areas.
 
Poison arrows? Decades ago Fred Bear held a patten for a "Pod" (poison arrow), and it was tested for the market both in the US and abroad. It was a rubber like sleave that held a poison powder just behind the broad head. Upon penetration,
The rubber rolled back up the shaft, releasing the poison. Very dangerous to the user and not considered ethical for hunting game. The other Archery Manufacturers were strongly against it, in fact a few were openly disgusted during a trial hunt. Poison arrows were legal in at least one southern state the last I knew, but that may have changed. Bad idea better left in the winds of history.

I have used hollowpoints of various calibers (.22 on up to .44 mag / .45 LC), on all sorts of small game during my life. My impression is that shot placement is FAR more important than bullet expansion. Shot placement... ;)
 
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shurshot said:
Poison arrows? Decades ago Fred Bear held a patten for a "Pod" (poison arrow), and it was tested for the market both in the US and abroad. It was a rubber like sleave that held a poison powder just behind the broad head. Upon penetration,
The rubber rolled back up the shaft, releasing the poison. Very dangerous to the user and not considered ethical for hunting game. The other Archery Manufacturers were strongly against it, in fact a few were openly disgusted during a trial hunt. Poison arrows were legal in at least one southern state the last I knew, but that may have changed. Bad idea better left in the winds of history.

I have used hollowpoints of various calibers (.22 on up to .44 mag / .45 LC), on all sorts of small game during my life. My impression is that shot placement is FAR more important than bullet expansion. Shot placement... ;)
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It goes without saying that shot placement is more important than anything but the bullet still has to reach the vitals to kill quickly and humanely. Bullets should be matched to the game and terrain/conditions.

That burst my bubble as far as old Fred. But I guess it's a matter of opinion whether poison arrows are ethical or not.
 
Not trying to tarnish Fred Bear's image, just stating the facts. But he WAS a successful businessman first and foremost. "Success" is measured in profits in the business world.
That being stated, the positive influence and ingenuity he brought forward in the field of Archery (and jobs he created), far outweighs his pod agenda.

I agree with you on your bullet comments.
 
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Forte S+W said:
For the longest time I carried .380 ACP exclusively as a primary Self-Defense cartridge, but over the years there have been increasing reports of wild animals coming out of the woods surrounding the suburban area in which I reside.
After hearing a rather disturbing story from my mother regarding a boar sighting while she was walking her dogs one Summer night, I decided that I needed to carry something more potent.
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A 380fmj will easily put down piggies... ask me how I know ;)
 
CosmoDragoon said:
Not at all. In fact, that's sort of the point here. I was hoping to bridge the gap between "best caliber for bad guys" and "best caliber for wild animals".

For human threats, 9mm seems to work pretty well and is fairly convenient to carry. I've seen a lot of arguments that you don't need more than 9mm for bad guys and that any gains with more powerful calibers are marginal. Without going down that rabbit hole, I've wondered how the margins change with different animals.

Personally, I think .40 S&W and .357 Sig might have something to offer here. Both offer a little more oomph. Both are still within reason for everyday carry around town. Thinking about "around town", there are a lot of us who live in suburban or semi-rural areas
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.

Yeah, I think that the more powerful duty cartridges hit the mark quite nicely.

.40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, and 10mm Auto. You could also work in some of the hotter loads for less common cartridges such as .38 Super in there as well.

I can't remember precisely who it was who said this, but someone (I believe it was Elmer Keith) one said; that any solid 200gr bullet traveling at 1000fps could kill anything in North America with proper shot placement.

.40 S&W and .45 ACP +P come very close to meeting those conditions, ergo they should work just fine for anything shy of the absolute biggest and baddest creatures on the continent.

A 380fmj will easily put down piggies... ask me how I know ;)
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I'll take your word for it, thanks.
 
My field and woods gun is 3" barrel Charter Arms .38 special. I figure the critter I'm most likely gonna accidentally walk up on is a snake, so I carry one round of .38 sp shot shell, and 4 hornady h.p., with the shot in position to fire first.
 
kymasabe said:
My field and woods gun is 3" barrel Charter Arms .38 special. I figure the critter I'm most likely gonna accidentally walk up on is a snake, so I carry one round of .38 sp shot shell, and 4 hornady h.p., with the shot in position to fire first.
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Snakes are on the opposite end of the spectrum here but still a real threat. I've shot a few with regular ammo. Any time I've carried shot shells, I haven't seen one.

Most of the time, I end up flinging errant snakes with my walking stick. I used to hike a section of trail where rattlesnakes were common. I figured they were doing their part to cut down on rodents, which helps to cut down on ticks. So whenever they were in my way, I'd poke the tip of my walking stick under them and use it to launch them back into the woods.
 
J.G. Terry said:
For me it's cast hollow points for 40 and 10mm in my handguns. Gun of choice outside is a 44 Special using Keith or Thompson bullets loaded to Skeeter levels. If those don't work home team is some deep Doo.
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Yep, 250gr Keith in 44 special or magnum at Skeeter levels depending on the territory if I'm anywhere near bear country carried in a 4" S&W Mountain Gun. Stomping around the wilds of Texas, I'm fine with a 357 or even a 22. Yes a 9mm can kill a bear, but don't kid yourself. The last thing I want is a bear bleeding out while he is chewing on my face. My goal has always been to stop a big animal that might harm me, and it takes a good size bullet to do that.
 
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