orionengnr
New member
I generally do 100 .22LR followed by 50-100 centerfire rounds.
As frequently as i can afford to do so.
As frequently as i can afford to do so.
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Handgun Training: Endurance or Frequency -- which is better?
- Thread starter TimeRegained
- Start date
Dry fire every day, it's free. I shoot outside my house so I shoot 5-20 rds every day. Not massive amount but enough for me to keep in tune. I believe if you hardly ever shoot then shoot alot watch out for enhanced errors. Dry fire is every important as real fire. They both have there place.
the role of .22 conversion units to maintain your skills
"It used to be recommended that you keep up your practice with a similiar model handgun in .22 but I don't think anyone actually does that anymore."
Shooting .22s in practice is back in style because of the big increase in ammo prices in the last 5 years -- look at all the companies that make .22 conversion units for various guns, particularly the M1911 platform, the AR-15 platform, and the Glocks . . .
This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I started shooting .22 conversion units about 30 years ago, when I was a poor student. About the same time Jerry Usher had an article in (I think) the American Handgunner ANNUAL advocating the use of what he called "understudy" guns for economical practice.
During my military service I used an M-16 (three different models, actually) and carried (in order) an S&W 15 revolver, an M1911A1 and then an M9. I have personal examples of all of those guns.
Over the years I acquired a S&W 18 (.22 cal combat masterpiece), a Colt Ace (.22 on the o frame) and a Ciener and then later a Beretta “practice kit” for the M9. And a Atchisson and then a Colt conversion unit for the AR-15.
(I also have a S&W 650 in .22 to go with my S&W 60 HB 3 inch, an argentine .22 conversion unit for my Browning P35, a Sig conversion unit I bought in 2008 for my 9mm 226 & 226-DAK in .40 cal, and a Walther PPK/S in .22 that I use as a practice gun for my Walther PPK & Sig 230).
In my military service I was an LE Specialist in the SPs in the ANG, an MP in the ARNG and then finished up back in the ANG as a CATM instructor. Back in the 80s we had access to the 50 foot indoor range at the local ARNG armory, which had a mild steel backstop and was limited to .22s. Shot thousands of rounds in there, and at the ROTC range on campus (I was enlisted, but I had a friend who was in the ROTC and he was able to get me in a few times) which was also limited to .22 because of a soft steel backstop and questionable ventilation . . .
I've done LOTS of shooting with all of them. I find it works best to do accuracy drills with the .22s. They don't have much recoil, but the balance and trigger pull and sight picture are all the same.
For practice with the bigger guns I usually use an IPSC or IDPA target or an NRA B-34 (1/2 scale) target. For the .22s I usually use a B-34 or the 1/3rd scale B-29 or TQ-16 or TQ-20 targets. I basically do my same set of drills at the same distances, but on a much smaller target. It helps a LOT to keep in tune and not spend as much money doing it.
The Ciener unit for the Beretta M9 is serviceable. The Beretta factory unit works better, and does have a hammer de-cocker/safety, just like the original.
The Ciener unit for the Glock is marginally reliable. Mine worked better after I had the chamber and the sides of the extractor where it pivots in the frame polished. If I clean it every 150 rounds or so, use good quality ammo and lube it well, it works reasonably well. But not great. I don't have very much personal experience with the Advantage Arms conversion units, but several of my shooting buddies have them and find them workable.
I bought my Atchisson conversion for the AR-15 in 1982 from Bro-Caliber International in Cincinnati. It was very rough and didn't work very well. Based on a 1985 article in SOLDIER OF FORTUNE I sent my conversion unit off to John Norrell Arms (now in Little Rock, Arkansas) and paid him almost $300 to tune it up so it would work. IT WAS MONEY WELL SPENT! As long as I keep the unit reasonably clean and well lubed and use good ammo, it'll shoot all day every day. (www,johnnorrellarms.com) (I don't know if he still adjusts conversion units like that or not . . . )
I also have a Ciener converter for an AK-47. (I have to confess I haven't shot that much in YEARS. That would probably be a good project for this coming winter)
Of course, the S&W .22 revolvers are a joy to shoot. Particularly the model 18.
The Argentine conversion unit for the Browning HP is pretty good as well. Like all the rest, kept clean, lubed well and fed good quality ammo, it shoots fairly reliably. (I bought mine from Sportsman's Guide about 10 years ago. There was another importer as well, but I haven't seen them advertised for quite a while now)
Peter Stahl in Germany also made conversion units for the Sig P6 (M225) and various of the Smith & Wesson auto pistols. I'm not sure they were ever imported into the US in any numbers. I tried to order a .22 conversion for my S&W 39 about 20 years ago but was unsuccessful.
Years ago you’d see ads in SHOTGUN NEWS for .22 converters for the P38 pistol. I've never seen one and have no idea how well they work.
None of my conversion units for the AR platform are the least ammo sensitive.
The Colt Ace & Beretta factory conversion unit will function with anything. Sig recommends CCI mini-mags in their conversions, and I believe that Advantage Arms recommends Remington Golden Bullets.
"It used to be recommended that you keep up your practice with a similiar model handgun in .22 but I don't think anyone actually does that anymore."
Shooting .22s in practice is back in style because of the big increase in ammo prices in the last 5 years -- look at all the companies that make .22 conversion units for various guns, particularly the M1911 platform, the AR-15 platform, and the Glocks . . .
This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I started shooting .22 conversion units about 30 years ago, when I was a poor student. About the same time Jerry Usher had an article in (I think) the American Handgunner ANNUAL advocating the use of what he called "understudy" guns for economical practice.
During my military service I used an M-16 (three different models, actually) and carried (in order) an S&W 15 revolver, an M1911A1 and then an M9. I have personal examples of all of those guns.
Over the years I acquired a S&W 18 (.22 cal combat masterpiece), a Colt Ace (.22 on the o frame) and a Ciener and then later a Beretta “practice kit” for the M9. And a Atchisson and then a Colt conversion unit for the AR-15.
(I also have a S&W 650 in .22 to go with my S&W 60 HB 3 inch, an argentine .22 conversion unit for my Browning P35, a Sig conversion unit I bought in 2008 for my 9mm 226 & 226-DAK in .40 cal, and a Walther PPK/S in .22 that I use as a practice gun for my Walther PPK & Sig 230).
In my military service I was an LE Specialist in the SPs in the ANG, an MP in the ARNG and then finished up back in the ANG as a CATM instructor. Back in the 80s we had access to the 50 foot indoor range at the local ARNG armory, which had a mild steel backstop and was limited to .22s. Shot thousands of rounds in there, and at the ROTC range on campus (I was enlisted, but I had a friend who was in the ROTC and he was able to get me in a few times) which was also limited to .22 because of a soft steel backstop and questionable ventilation . . .
I've done LOTS of shooting with all of them. I find it works best to do accuracy drills with the .22s. They don't have much recoil, but the balance and trigger pull and sight picture are all the same.
For practice with the bigger guns I usually use an IPSC or IDPA target or an NRA B-34 (1/2 scale) target. For the .22s I usually use a B-34 or the 1/3rd scale B-29 or TQ-16 or TQ-20 targets. I basically do my same set of drills at the same distances, but on a much smaller target. It helps a LOT to keep in tune and not spend as much money doing it.
The Ciener unit for the Beretta M9 is serviceable. The Beretta factory unit works better, and does have a hammer de-cocker/safety, just like the original.
The Ciener unit for the Glock is marginally reliable. Mine worked better after I had the chamber and the sides of the extractor where it pivots in the frame polished. If I clean it every 150 rounds or so, use good quality ammo and lube it well, it works reasonably well. But not great. I don't have very much personal experience with the Advantage Arms conversion units, but several of my shooting buddies have them and find them workable.
I bought my Atchisson conversion for the AR-15 in 1982 from Bro-Caliber International in Cincinnati. It was very rough and didn't work very well. Based on a 1985 article in SOLDIER OF FORTUNE I sent my conversion unit off to John Norrell Arms (now in Little Rock, Arkansas) and paid him almost $300 to tune it up so it would work. IT WAS MONEY WELL SPENT! As long as I keep the unit reasonably clean and well lubed and use good ammo, it'll shoot all day every day. (www,johnnorrellarms.com) (I don't know if he still adjusts conversion units like that or not . . . )
I also have a Ciener converter for an AK-47. (I have to confess I haven't shot that much in YEARS. That would probably be a good project for this coming winter)
Of course, the S&W .22 revolvers are a joy to shoot. Particularly the model 18.
The Argentine conversion unit for the Browning HP is pretty good as well. Like all the rest, kept clean, lubed well and fed good quality ammo, it shoots fairly reliably. (I bought mine from Sportsman's Guide about 10 years ago. There was another importer as well, but I haven't seen them advertised for quite a while now)
Peter Stahl in Germany also made conversion units for the Sig P6 (M225) and various of the Smith & Wesson auto pistols. I'm not sure they were ever imported into the US in any numbers. I tried to order a .22 conversion for my S&W 39 about 20 years ago but was unsuccessful.
Years ago you’d see ads in SHOTGUN NEWS for .22 converters for the P38 pistol. I've never seen one and have no idea how well they work.
None of my conversion units for the AR platform are the least ammo sensitive.
The Colt Ace & Beretta factory conversion unit will function with anything. Sig recommends CCI mini-mags in their conversions, and I believe that Advantage Arms recommends Remington Golden Bullets.
practice routine
There are LOTS of valid comments in this discussion.
I'm a cop, and currently my duty gun is a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal. (A department transition to the Glock 22 after the beginning of the NEXT fiscal year (July 2013) is being evaluated).
My department DOES NOT issue practice ammo on any regular basis.
I shoot 250 rnds a month through my duty gun. Usually in one practice session.
I find right around 200 rnds to be a good amount for a single practice session when shooting centerfire guns -- sometimes if I'm shooting a .22 I'll shoot more than that, up to 250 or 300.
(I buy commercial .40 cal reloads from my local commercial reloader, or Ultramax reloads from Sportsman's Guide, or "Canned Heat" reloads from Georgia Arms.)
I have a whole bunch of different practice courses I use, depending upon what I'm trying to practice, how much time I have, am I on an indoor range or outdoor range, how busy the range is, etc. As one of the others in this discussion has noted, many ranges have some limitations on what you're allowed to do for safety reasons. Just do whatever you can and don't worry about it.
Practice on basic skills with a focus on timely accuracy is ALWAYS a good idea.
There are LOTS of valid comments in this discussion.
I'm a cop, and currently my duty gun is a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal. (A department transition to the Glock 22 after the beginning of the NEXT fiscal year (July 2013) is being evaluated).
My department DOES NOT issue practice ammo on any regular basis.
I shoot 250 rnds a month through my duty gun. Usually in one practice session.
I find right around 200 rnds to be a good amount for a single practice session when shooting centerfire guns -- sometimes if I'm shooting a .22 I'll shoot more than that, up to 250 or 300.
(I buy commercial .40 cal reloads from my local commercial reloader, or Ultramax reloads from Sportsman's Guide, or "Canned Heat" reloads from Georgia Arms.)
I have a whole bunch of different practice courses I use, depending upon what I'm trying to practice, how much time I have, am I on an indoor range or outdoor range, how busy the range is, etc. As one of the others in this discussion has noted, many ranges have some limitations on what you're allowed to do for safety reasons. Just do whatever you can and don't worry about it.
Practice on basic skills with a focus on timely accuracy is ALWAYS a good idea.
themalicious0ne
New member
I think one session of 500 rounds is a bit much, frequency is better in my oppinion. If I am really trying to learn something new however, it may take more than 200 rounds. I dont shoot often enough but I feel like the first 50 or so rounds is to get back to the comfort of my weapon, then maybe ill be comfortable but i notice my grouping is off or I am not doing something properly. Then I will practice my "propper" technique between focus and timed trials. Before I feel truly comfortable with my new found tecnique it may be over 200 rounds but probably not exceeding 400. Food for thought.
Fast bolt excellent comment.
No one discussed dry firing. My instructors, SSG Schongert and SFC Reed insisted on 10 dry fires for every live round. Good mechanics, call your shot and stand clear of Rattle Battle type sessions.
When training I mentally asses my target, mentally go through the steps to draw, acquire the target and release the bullet.
I then go through the actual firing. Following the shot I asses the action of the weapon during the process and call my shot. I check the target to determine what actually happened. Once i have determined what actually happened I determine what corrective action needs to be taken to correct my faults and repeat the process.
An hour training session will result in shooting 20 to thirty rounds.
In short quality training trumps quantity training every time.
No one discussed dry firing. My instructors, SSG Schongert and SFC Reed insisted on 10 dry fires for every live round. Good mechanics, call your shot and stand clear of Rattle Battle type sessions.
When training I mentally asses my target, mentally go through the steps to draw, acquire the target and release the bullet.
I then go through the actual firing. Following the shot I asses the action of the weapon during the process and call my shot. I check the target to determine what actually happened. Once i have determined what actually happened I determine what corrective action needs to be taken to correct my faults and repeat the process.
An hour training session will result in shooting 20 to thirty rounds.
In short quality training trumps quantity training every time.
Steviewonder1
New member
I do 30 minutes of Dry Fire (fired cartridge case on slide at front sight) at home before going to the range. At the range the limit is 200 rounds max. This is 2X per week unless on vacation. One time mid week and the other on the weekend. Years ago I would shoot till ankle deep in brass, no longer.
After a couple of hundred rounds you are wasting your time and your ammo. Unless you are in a 3 day match there is no need for endurance training with a pistol. Use the extra time to lift weights, dig up the garden,. go for a walk, play a little basketball. Physical conditioning will help you more than trying to keep tired glazed eyes on the front sight. Then when you really need to shoot you will have the stamina to do it.
Jeff Cooper's advice on training to maintain what was learned at Gunsite is contained in the book "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" beginning on page 141. Even though the book was written by Gregory Boyce Morrison, Jeff Cooper was the Editorial Adviser and the substance of the book is based upon Cooper's teachings.
It is emphasized "every firing stroke must be analyzed and appropriate adjustments made. Exhaustive repetition of error does not add up to progress."
It is suggested that non-shooting warmups and dry fire practice go a long way in maintaining skills. In the book it is suggested that less than 100 rounds is sufficient to practice seven drills which make up the Skill Maintenance Exercises.
It is not stated how often one should shoot to maintain skills, the phrase "a steady program of home and range practice" is used.
Does that mean every day, every week, every month or only every year?
I think 500 rounds is excessive for me. At Gunsite I rarely shot more than 200 rounds in one day.
It is emphasized "every firing stroke must be analyzed and appropriate adjustments made. Exhaustive repetition of error does not add up to progress."
It is suggested that non-shooting warmups and dry fire practice go a long way in maintaining skills. In the book it is suggested that less than 100 rounds is sufficient to practice seven drills which make up the Skill Maintenance Exercises.
It is not stated how often one should shoot to maintain skills, the phrase "a steady program of home and range practice" is used.
Does that mean every day, every week, every month or only every year?
I think 500 rounds is excessive for me. At Gunsite I rarely shot more than 200 rounds in one day.
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At Gunsite I rarely shot more than 200 rounds in one day.
The road to precision is lined with small piles of empty brass.
Farmerboy sorry i missed your post. Dry firing, if properly done, is critical to developing good breath control, sight pictures and trigger control.
my preferred method is to use a sharpened pencil wrapped with tape to position the pencil in the center of the bore. Draw a dot on a piece of paper. Place the paper on a cork board, the wife hates it when i punch holes in the dry wall, assume a proper shooting stance with the pencil about 1/2" from the target. Obtain a proper site picture and release the trigger.
With a 1911 you should be able to put 10 points into a 1/16 inch circle. if you do this then you are ready to start shooting live rounds.
I also use dry firing as a diagnostic tool on the line to determine a variety of problems. This is generally referred to as ball and dummy.
my preferred method is to use a sharpened pencil wrapped with tape to position the pencil in the center of the bore. Draw a dot on a piece of paper. Place the paper on a cork board, the wife hates it when i punch holes in the dry wall, assume a proper shooting stance with the pencil about 1/2" from the target. Obtain a proper site picture and release the trigger.
With a 1911 you should be able to put 10 points into a 1/16 inch circle. if you do this then you are ready to start shooting live rounds.
I also use dry firing as a diagnostic tool on the line to determine a variety of problems. This is generally referred to as ball and dummy.
I'm definitely in the 'frequency' camp. When I shoot, I always fire my carry gun first, since that is the one I will fire 'cold', if the Bad Thing ever happens. After 20-30 rd, I will shoot other guns, until I start feeling like I'm just burning powder.
If I'm at an outdoor range, I will plink for fun after running through my drills.
If I'm at an outdoor range, I will plink for fun after running through my drills.
HeadHunter
New member
Not many people withstand 500 rounds of ammo in one session. I would recommend the frequency option.
I voted for the mega-session, tho I agree that shorter sessions more often would be better ... however, you have to take costs into consideration (at least those of us in the real world do) ... each session at my range costs $10, so three sessions would be an extra $20 a week, plus the drive time ... and even tho I'm retired, I still have a life, and don't have time to go to the range three times a week ... my goal is to get there twice a month, and I almost always go through at least 300-400 rds through three-four guns each time I do ...