Handgun Self defense Stance

Okay, forgive my ignorance (of abbreviations): what is UFC? But I agree, combat hangunnery is a martial art, not a game. But target shooting? And for that matter, how about hunting?

I've never watched a formal target match. The best I can say I've seen is a bowling pin match. Can't say I'd want to learn anything from those folks, especially the ones using .45 autos.
 
Its the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

I personally don't like pistol competitions that diverge to far from reality, or use enhanced equipment that wouldn't be carried.

Jeff Cooper fought in WW2 in the Marine Corps. He was very aware of Fairbairn-Sykes, Rex Applegate, etc. When they had the first competitions at Big Bear Lake, point shooting was the predominate style, but they lost, to the two handed eye level technique. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Technique_of_the_Pistol#History

I believe in knowing how to use Threat Focused shooting. Its a valuable tool, but it never has been, or ever will be as accurate as the front sight press.

Watch this old WW2 training video. They taught Threat Focused shooting, but they taught bringing the pistol to eye level, because the closer you get it to eye level, the more accurate you will be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14qTdp-Dd30

People really do need training to get started. There is no way anyone can learn martial arts from a book. There is no way they can get on TFL ask for advice on a pistol and ammo and suddenly be competent at defending themselves.
 
BlueTrain said:
...The best I can say I've seen is a bowling pin match. Can't say I'd want to learn anything from those folks, especially the ones using .45 autos.
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Getting solid hits quickly on multiple targets isn't a worthwhile skill? Hmm!
 
You practice perfect form consciously to give you a good base for dealing unconciously with imperfect situations.

It's like football practice. You spend hundreds of hours working on positioning, leverage, foot placement and whatever else so that you can play minutes in the game in situations that are only a facsimile of what you practiced. If you're thinking about where your feet go when you hit the field don't worry, you'll be back on the bench soon.

I've always thought it similar for self defense training. You get trained in whatever stuff you can, and when the time comes it either pops out (and you win) or it doesn't (and you lose).
 
I lke Kraigwy's view. Let's practice one-handed and point-shooting.
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Most, by far, videos of actual shootings show two handed shooting, or at least the opportunity to use it if desired.

One handed shooting has it's place for sure, and should be practiced. But should be secondary to two handed shooting. With so much emphasis on situational awareness, that awareness can provide time for a two handed shooting stance, if not extracating one from the situation beforehand.

There are some pretty good shooting instructors and schools out there, and none emphasize one handed shooting over two handed.
 
Nnobby45 said:
Most, by far, videos of actual shootings show two handed shooting...
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On the other hand, according to the 2009 NYPD Firearm Discharge Report, 38% of officers reporting their shooting technique used in a violent encounter used their sidearm one-handed.
 
nate45 is right

thank you, nate45, for your remarks and links. In my practice for SD shooting, I find the eye level method (Cooper's Modern Technique) is the only way I can get accuracy and rapid fire together. Especially with a snub nose revolver!!
Just point shooting either from hip or waist high was just a waste of ammo with nothing more than a "spray and pray" effect. I call it the "Hollywood Method".
Cheers,
og
 
Perusing my copy of No Second Place Winner I see Bill Jordan uses every thing from "hip" shooting to the Isoceles Stance and I have always remembered Charlie Askins' definition of the "belly gun"-"You place it against your enemy's belly and pull the trigger." Granted those two gents were a lot more talented than the rest of us, but I think there is something to be said for not relying on The Stance but developing a variety of postures that can be used depending on the situation.
 
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Seeker,

First off the word 'Stance' is something you practice on a cold range and then adapt it to the real world. You learn it well, practice it often, and then adapt as the situation presents itself.

Second, no one 'stance' will solver all problems.

And third, no one stance will fit every individual.

In a general sense you need two, er, 'stances' or maybe three at the minimum.

You need a form of two handed shooting for the times (about 90 percent of 'em) you have the time to use those two hands. This could be a Weaver, Chapman, Isosceles, reverse Weaver, etc.. I don't care what the top competition shooters use, experiment and find out which one works best for YOU.

Then you need a form of one handed fire, or 'stance', for the times you will only be able to use one hand for any number of reasons. These stances are not real codified but usually you step forward with the shooting side's foot and thrust the weapon completely forward before either using the sights or the top of the slide (point shooting that is.)

Lastingly you will need a form of hip/retention shooting for those very fast extreme close range confrontations. Be it speed rock, retention, Center Axis Relock (CAR), 1/4 hip point shooting, etc...

Which 'stance' is best? You need to experiment and find out which. And that means alot of range time which is good all in itself.

Deaf
 
There are some pretty good shooting instructors and schools out there, and none emphasize one handed shooting over two handed.
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Probably because the never been in a situation where they had to do a building search, or walk around with a flashlight, or have to open a door, or push a loved one back,push them out of the way of danger, or had to hold onto one bandit while facing another, or push a bandit's weapon aside while he drew his own pistol.

I could go on forever, but you get the ideal. If I were to go to a pistol/revolver class and found the instructor didn't stress one handed (both hands one at a time), I'd find another instructor.
 
Let me explain my comment about the bowling pin match I witnessed. I'm not saying being able to clear a table of bowling pins quickly is not a useful skill transferable to a real life situation. I'm just pointing out that some of them weren't very good at it and one or two had pistol malfunctions of some sort. I was very impressed with one man using a S&W double action revolver in .45. He did the fast reload I've ever seen with a revolver.

Without elaborating here, I'd also like to say that "stance" connotes something rather more static than is desirable, although I also realize that it necessarily so. I know from the fencing I did while I was in college that you more or less maintain the same stance all the time but you pretty much move around as much as a boxer, only just back and forth. Now fencing is a good example of a martial sport that has been gamed to the extent that it is virtually unrelated to sword fighting in the same way that a .22 short Olympic target pistol is unrelated to a combat handgun, at least one that's not a .22 rimfire. That doesn't make the whole thing useless, of course, and I'm surprised there isn't more emphasis here (in the forum generally) about practicing with a .22. Maybe it's just understood.

I'm also a believer in one handed shooting, though hardly to the exclusion of everything else. I am not a fan of hip shooting, however, using the literal meaning.
 
During my sheriff's department firarm training we were taught to shoot at point blank range after drawing. Keep your off-hand out of the way.
 
Fiddletown and Nnobby45 are both right, if we accept Fiddletown's figures. If 38% shot of the cited shootings were one-handed, that leaves 62%, or a bit over half again as many, being two-handed. Two-handed is a substantial majority and one-handed is a very significant minority, which would seem to be further evidence that defensive shootings are dynamic events that require flexibility and a wide variety of techniques to give one the best chance of survival.
 
I really wouldn't presume to try and tell people what to do, or try to coach them on the net. I don't like trying to do it IRL, more less over the net. So the following isn't a how to, its just an example of some of the things I do.

I was just recoil training myself over the last few days. I do it by drawing and firing my S&W 29-2, with the aid of a range timer. I use 300 grain XTPs, loaded over 21 grains of H-110 with a CCI 350 primer. That, along with 250 grain Keith types are my standard .44 Magnum loads.

I prefer the Magna N-frame grips for drawing and point shooting. For me they point well. I usually draw and fire an accurate, one handed, double tap in 1.5 to 1.75 seconds with my .44. I also fire three round, bursts with two hands. I rarely miss the A-zone from 3-7 yards.

After a session with my Model 29-2, my Model 19s, 1911s, Hi-Power, etc seem to have soft recoil. My .44 stings a little, actually more than a little, but not too bad. :)

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I've been playing with toy guns and practicing fighting since before I can remember, like 3 maybe. I've always been fascinated by war and martial arts. I got to have my own(thanks Dad:)) .357 Magnum, a Colt Trooper MkIII when I was 14.

What I'm getting at, is there is no way, now at 47, that I can translate a life time of practice into an internet post. Nor can I teach someone else how over the internet. There is no certain handgun one can by, or rote method that will make anyone a gunfighter. There is no 'best' way to stand, etc, it all comes from practice. People who are inexperienced need competent IRL instruction to get them started.
 
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