Handgun Holster Snatch / Retention

Col Klink,

That will work only as long as you can simultaneously keep pressure on his forearm with your right arm and make the jabs at his eyes.

The problem I have with this is twofold. First, it allows the BG to get the gun out of the holster. This is bad for any number of reasons, not the least of which is the danger to bystanders, your feet/legs, side, etc. For if the BG is able to wrench his arm free, you are potentially DOA.

Secondly, in martial arts it is well known that concentration on our muscle groups can lapse when the mind is preoccupied with other things. For example, if someone has you in a rear choke hold, slamming your heel down on his instep might work to injure him, but the toes are more sensitive and more easily broken. Slamming onto them, even if it doesn't cause pain, distracts the mind from the hand you have on their wrist. If you pull on their wrist just after slamming onto their foot you can usually gain a few inches to duck out of the choke hold. Thus, in the above scenario, YOUR mind is diverted while poking at his eyes and he may be able to break your forearm "grip" at that point.


One method that I did see demonstrated could be used if you were alert to someone getting "too close" (instead of being surprised). Push your strong hand down on the gun & his hand then TURN into him with your off-hand palm up and rigid. Strike to the diaphram area with a straight jab as HARD as you can, trying to twist your off-side shoulder into the movement. When hit, his grip weakens and you can peel it off the gun and twist away. If done correctly you won't have to shoot him because he will be preoccupied just trying to breathe!. I should add that striking the throat will work too, but increases the likelihood of a crippling or fatal injury. The heel of the hand to the chin or base of the nose could work too, if you have the reach.
 
Fight to live and fight to kill... fighting for honor is for the graveyard.

I had a person try to grab my service pistol in a scuffle at a call one night, I pulled my baton, and cut right into his throat with it and killed him.

That was an IA nightmare, but I was cleared. It's either us or them people!
 
Unfortunately, I've never taken (I plan on changing this) any hands-on weapon retention training, but based upon the exposure to the subject that I've had, I would likely prefer the Lindell system of retention, or perhaps a simplified version based upon it. Material from Habermehl, Caracci, and Ayoob typically show the first response is to clap the strong hand directly atop of either the handgun's grip or the attackers hand, with the the support coming across and providing more strength to that grip, pressing down and back into the holster. They all seem to stress that having only one hand on the gun and attempting to strike is not the thing to do.

Apparently, another thing in vogue with "snatchers" is attempting to rip the entire holster itself (with holstered handgun) off of the belt, achieved by coming down with all one's weight between the holster and belt. The method of holster attachment to the belt becomes very important at that moment, one would expect. Stitches ripping, plastic breaking, etc. Another reason to update ones equipment should it be old and broken down.

If I can recall the Lindell system relies upon leverage, not brute strength, and utilizes trapping, positioning, and leverage. Habermehl and Caracci's training tapes both mentioned to trap and then drop your center of gravity, bringing the attacker off balance and not as able to utilize his strength. The concept of the outer part of a circle turns faster than the center is used also, i.e., trap the attackers hand/s, then turn a quick and violent small circle, which should prove difficult for anyone to hang on.

C'mon, I believe there was someone on this forum in the past that was Lindell trained. Anyone here to enlighten us as to the advantages of the system.

EricO
 
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Regarding retention techniques, here's a old post by Marty Hayes, of FAS (Firearms academy of Seattle) that speaks about the Lindell method vs. "destructive" techniques.

"Any method that relies on destructive techniques also hinges on physical strength to overpower an opponent. Having said that, if you possess the physical strength to do the techniques properly, no prob. But, as an instructor, I believe I need to teach techniques that people who are not the most physically fit can also do. Hence, I started teaching the LIndell method about 7-8 years ago, and continue to do so today.

As previously stated, it takes practice to master the techniques. I got news for you, mastering ANY skill takes practice. If a person took the time to practice WR as much as they do shooting, they would either be very skilled at WR or lousy at shooting too.

The Lindell method relies on leverage, not strength. Thus, pretty much anyone who has a reasonable level of physical strength and mobility can learn the techiques."

Interesting.... I would think that being well rounded, knowing the Lindell system very well, yet also having the capability to do strikes as well, would be very beneficial.

EricO
 
BillCA wrote:
The problem I have with this is twofold. First, it allows the BG to get the gun out of the holster. This is bad for any number of reasons, not the least of which is the danger to bystanders, your feet/legs, side, etc. For if the BG is able to wrench his arm free, you are potentially DOA.

As it was presented to us the BG couldn't get the gun out. We each had the hold done TO US as well as doing it to someone. When I was the doee there was no way I could move my arm even when I had a grip on the gun.

Bill: Someday we will be in the same place at the same time. Check out "Elk Grove Shoot" in Glock Talk State Clubs/California. I have the same user name there. When we are face to face remind me to demonstrate the hold.
 
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