Handgun history question

Mike Irwin pretty well nailed it.

As for background history, my take, as cops are not necessary gun people (its a tool they need to carry) that applies to chiefs and selectors of the arms as well.


The 1911, cocked and locked is something to get used to. I have issues with it.
You need to do two actions to deal with it and one is a distraction (taking the safety off) and then its truly a very dangerous SA gun (instead of full focus on a suspect and the trigger) Combat is one thing (mostly you either shoot or don't care if someone gets an ND you are aiming the gun at) - I disagree its a good SD or a police gun.


Glock sold a bill of goods that they were the answer to everyones prayers, safe and effective. Glock Butt and Let and innumerable NDs have proven otherwise. 9mm did lend itself to the non gun guys and gals who were coming into the forces. GIs had built up a history with the Beretta. SD ammo was improving.

And the not so reliable S&W 59, it saved two troopers lives in a shootout in our town. Nut case wound up with a lot of 357 and 9mm lead in him but the 9mm got him by nicking an Aorta.
 
Out of the box, stock variety 1911s left a lot to be desired in the accuracy and reliability departments, because this was an era when the very good 1911 magazine was also hard to come by.
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I have never had a problem with standard G.I. magazines (with the dimple [Sic, "tit"]). However, the one no dimple, eight-rounder marked "Colt" that came with my XSE Colt Combat Commander was troublesome as was other eight-rounders sans dimple. I ended up converting all my eight rounders to seven rounds with dimpled followers...no more problems.
 
I was responsible for the firearms training in our department for approximately twenty five years, I carried them through individual purchased carry firearm to issue of Model 15, 19, 66, 686 in conjunction to introducing the 39 for duty use and shortly thereafter the Model 59. The early 59’s had extraction problems which was quickly addressed and S&W provided me with replacement extractors which I installed in our pistols. No further function problems were had with first, second and third generation pistols. Prior to my retirement a transition of the entire department to the Glock 22and 23 Pistols was initiated and all other pistols were withdrawn from service and offered to officers at trade price.
Although we had a small cadre of individuals who resisted firearms training the majority enthusiastically participated firing over 100,000 rounds of pistol ammunition each year. Pretty good for a department of approximately 125 officers.
 
We should also note that in much of the world the police handgun was a semi-automatic long before the trend was seen in the US. 7.65 & 9mm (in all it's lengths) were quite common as the police (and often military) handgun.
 
Ibmikey said:
Although we had a small cadre of individuals who resisted firearms training the majority enthusiastically participated firing over 100,000 rounds of pistol ammunition each year. Pretty good for a department of approximately 125 officers.
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Are you saying that each of your officers fired 100,000 rounds per year, or are you saying that the department went through 100,000 rounds to feed 125 officers?
 
I do not know of anyone who carries a Ruger .22 auto, Browning Buckmark, etc., around in the woods with them that is not cocked and locked.
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This is exactly the reason I got rid of my Ruger MKII. I just didn't feel comfortable knowing that the only thing protecting my leg from getting shot if a brush grabbed the trigger was that single safety.
 
You got rid of the gun because you couldn't figure out a "comfortable" (safe) way to carry it??.
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Yes. My need was for a "walking around the woods" .22LR plinker. I sold the Ruger and bought a S&W 617 10-shot.
 
This is exactly the reaso:(n I got rid of my Ruger MKII. I just didn't feel comfortable knowing that the only thing protecting my leg from getting shot if a brush grabbed the trigger was that single safety.
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...but that is the thing. Whether a 1911 or 22, the hammer/sear relationship, locked in by the safety is what keeps your leg safe. You test its function with every shot.

Do you carry a bolt action rifle or shotgun cocked and locked?....most of them only have only a trigger safety.

Do you carry a Glock? Cocked and unlocked?

Please don’t take this as an attack on your post. Your opinion is widely held, especially in law enforcement. This is partially why we went through the DAO auto phase!
 
Aguila, Sorry if I confused you but I know of no organization that provides an officer with 100,000 rounds per year to plink with.
 
Do you carry a bolt action rifle or shotgun cocked and locked?....most of them only have only a trigger safety.
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I don't consider those to be as dangerous. I can always control the muzzle direction of a long gun. So, in the event of a safety failure the threat is minimized. In a holstered gun with a light-pull trigger (yes, that MKII had a very light trigger pull) only held by a single safety, I can't control the muzzle direction.
 
I don't consider those to be as dangerous. I can always control the muzzle direction of a long gun. So, in the event of a safety failure the threat is minimized. In a holstered gun with a light-pull trigger (yes, that MKII had a very light trigger pull) only held by a single safety, I can't control the muzzle direction.
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I appreciate your viewpoint. I used to think the same. 2 things changed my mind. First, I carry in good quality holsters that cover my trigger, hold gun at a proper angle and are secure on my belt. The other thing was I was walking with a front slung shotgun, muzzle down with someone behind me.....I fell face first in the mud. I don’t think my gun covered them, but it could have. I’ve never fallen before and the gun didn’t go off, but it is something I think about when setting up my stuff.
 
We should also note that in much of the world the police handgun was a semi-automatic long before the trend was seen in the US. 7.65 & 9mm (in all it's lengths) were quite common as the police (and often military) handgun.
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Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow. Jan Stevenson described the 1960s roadblock:
US: Multiple patrol cars in echelon to block the road, cops hunkering over their hoods with revolvers and shotguns.
France: A polite gendarme with clipboard. The honest traveler probably didn't notice the two gendarmes in the bushes with a Chatelleraut.

When the Red Army Faction and the Baader-Meinhof Gang convinced German police that they needed something stouter than a PP .32 and launched the 1970s trials, most were good with the 9mms selected. One tough outfit shed a tear when they had to give up their .357 Magnums, though.
 
I respect your choice about what is, and isn't safe carry, for you, there really aren't any wrong choices in personal choice like this, only choices I don't agree with.

But I do wonder if you considered alternatives. A good holster goes a long way in controlling the muzzle. The right design covers and protects the trigger from brush snagging. A full flap holster goes even further.

The other thing that occurred to me was, why not just not load the chamber?? A .22 Sport & plinking gun doesn't need to be "combat ready" like a self defense arm, why not just carry with the chamber empty?

I'm just idly curious, if you considered things like that, and if so, why they weren't good enough.

Of course, "I just wanted a different gun" is a COMPLETELY FINE answer, too.
 
Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow. Jan Stevenson described the 1960s roadblock:
US: Multiple patrol cars in echelon to block the road, cops hunkering over their hoods with revolvers and shotguns.
France: A polite gendarme with clipboard. The honest traveler probably didn't notice the two gendarmes in the bushes with a Chatelleraut.
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This is interesting, do you consider an SMG to be a "long gun"??

I was in Germany in the later 70s, the police always patrolled in pairs, one with a 9mm pistol, the other with a 9mm SMG.

the German roadblock was two VW vans, blocking the road, with a tripod mounted belt fed machinegun between them. I saw one set up to stop a "speeder" a few km outside of Vilseck. :eek:

Germans don't have speed limits many places, and many places where they do they aren't enforced, but when they DO enforce them, they REALLY do! :D
 
This is exactly the reason I got rid of my Ruger MKII. I just didn't feel comfortable knowing that the only thing protecting my leg from getting shot if a brush grabbed the trigger was that single safety.
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A full-flap holster?

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A .22 Sport & plinking gun doesn't need to be "combat ready" like a self defense arm, why not just carry with the chamber empty?
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Yes, a full-flap holster would have made me feel better. The idea of carrying on an empty chamber works fine - until you want to actually shoot just one shot or two. After shooting less than a full mag and desiring to continue on carrying, you have to remove the magazine, rack the chamber to empty it, put that round back into the magazine and re-insert the magazine. Not a total deal killer but still not nearly as convenient as simply dropping a revolver back into the holster.
 
Jim Watson said:
Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow. Jan Stevenson described the 1960s roadblock:
US: Multiple patrol cars in echelon to block the road, cops hunkering over their hoods with revolvers and shotguns.
France: A polite gendarme with clipboard. The honest traveler probably didn't notice the two gendarmes in the bushes with a Chatelleraut.

When the Red Army Faction and the Baader-Meinhof Gang convinced German police that they needed something stouter than a PP .32 and launched the 1970s trials, most were good with the 9mms selected. One tough outfit shed a tear when they had to give up their .357 Magnums, though.
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And IIRC the Châtellerault was one of the major MAS/MAC arms competitions and it's clear which one won. BAR none I think. :D
 
"This is interesting, do you consider an SMG to be a "long gun"??"

I don't think anyone really considers the Chatelleraut Mle 1924/29 light machine gun anything other than a long gun.

Chatelleraut never produced submachine guns.

When I was in France in the early 1980s it wasn't uncommon at all to see regular police walking beats with either a MAS-36 rifle or a MAT-49 submachine gun.
 
"Germans don't have speed limits many places, and many places where they do they aren't enforced, but when they DO enforce them, they REALLY do! "

Let me tell you about French crowd control...

My second trip to France we were in Paris when a major trans European balloon race was taking off from the Place de la Condorde (same race in which Maxie Anderson was killed... Hum... according to the Gordon Benett Cup records, that was June 25, 1983)...

Anyway, we wanted to get across the plaza, but the crowds were enormous, so we started back tracking to see if we could find a clear way to cross.

One of the side streets we passed was a staging area for the riot police...

Lots of uniformed police with MAS-36 rifles, lots of armored riot police, and...

An armored car with what appeared to be a dual, or possibly a quad, mount machine gun in a turret.
 
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