Handgun clarification

S

sabrefanpc

New member
Here is what I have gathered:

It is ILLEGAL for a dealer to sell a handgun to anyone under 21.
It is ILLEGAL for a private individual to sell one to anyone under 18.
It is LEGAL for someone 18 or over to own a handgun (at least in FL)

So here is my question: If I buy from a private individual it is legal, but if I buy from someone out of state and use an FFL dealer is it still legal? Are they technically selling it to me or simply transferring or what?
 
You may not use a FFL, therefore you may not buy from out of state. The law says no "transfer," not "sell".
 
There is another way for you to legally own a handgun between the ages of 18 and 21. You can receive it as a gift.

You may not give someone the money to buy it for you though, that is called a straw-man purchase and it is illegal. Gun shops *do* watch for signs this, so don't even try it.

I would encourage you to invest some money into receiving some safety training. You can *NEVER* have too much training.

-Dave
 
It is not considered a straw purchase if a parent buys a handgun for you. Look at the FFL cartoon dealing with straw purchases on the BATFE website. One specifically says that since the buyer was not the younger one's father, it was a straw purchase and they couldn't sell it.

Anthony
 
Training and safety I feel good on. Actually have taken instruction, and even the same CCW class as everyone else, except it doesnt count for me. Oh well. Thanks for the advice guys. Unfortunately my parents can't but me one, and I have a sneeking suspicion even private individuals will be weary of selling to me even though I am aptly prepared and of legal age...
 
sabrefanpc, I didn't have a problem buying my HK from an individual here in Michigan, and I think anyone who has a problem with you has no idea what he's talking about.
 
AnthonyRSS,

It is not considered a straw purchase if a parent buys a handgun for you.
Click to expand...

If you walk into a store, hand your father money, and say "Buy that gun for me," you are perpetrating a straw purchase.

Question number one on the 4473 is "Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm?" If your father writes "yes" in this blank after you've just handed him your cash, he is lying on a federal form. This is a crime known as "perjury", and is the actual charge around which the straw purchase case will be built.

Don't believe what you think you interpreted out of the ATF's little web cartoon, and don't take my word for it; give 'em a ring, or email eps@atf.gov , and ask them if they would prosecute you under those circumstances.
 
I know this is a matter of semantics now, but what if someone was to buy a gun with their own money and then sell it? I would think that would still be a straw purchase, but then intent to sell seems a bit hazy. If I were to find some show/store selling a NIB custom 1911 from svi or another expensive manufacturer for $100, you can bet I would buy it and then look to sell it to make an easy thousand dollars or so. Worded that way it sounds more like venture capitalism than a straw purchase.
 
sabrefanpc,

Worded that way it sounds more like venture capitalism than a straw purchase.
Click to expand...

True, but venture capitalism in firearms without a Federal Firearms License is also, sadly, a felony.

What exactly constitutes doing business in firearms is only vaguely defined in the federal code, and is open to broad interpretation by the BATF. What is not allowed is being engaged in the business of selling firearms for profit without a license. What is allowed is buying, selling, and trading to enhance one's collection.

Let's examine a specific case:

I was once offered a sweet deal on three S&W revolvers, of a model that I didn't have, but the price was only good if I bought all three. There were three different barrel lengths: a 3", a 4", and a 6". Now, I knew in advance that I'd only be keeping the 3" gun, since that was going to fit best with my collection, but I scrupulously avoided selling the other two and just pocketing the cash; instead, I used them as trade goods to acquire other Smiths I needed. This was obviously not "doing business in firearms for a profit."

Now, suppose I had kept the 3" gun, and just sold off the other two. This is hazy. Obviously I bought the package deal for the sole purpose of improving my collection, and kept the one gun as proof, but if I made a profit on the other two, an overzealous ATF guy would have a thread to hang a case on.

Lastly, suppose I took advantage of the sweet package deal, and sold off all three at the tidy profit I could have realized. That would have been an obvious case of being engaged in the business of selling firearms without a license, and any agent that noticed would have 0wn3d me, had he cared to make a case of it.

The shoals are murky. Bring a map, and be darned sure of your course before you set sale. ;)
 
When I got my C&R FFL I read the books they sent with it and some state laws. I can't remember for sure if I saw it in the ATF's regulations or my states laws (I'll try harder to find it again later) but I saw somewhere that, in addition to what Tamara said, you are considered conducting buisness in firearms when you make more than 10% of your yearly earnings from the profits of sales.
 
Tamara said:
I was once offered a sweet deal on three S&W revolvers, of a model that I didn't have, but the price was only good if I bought all three. There were three different barrel lengths: a 3", a 4", and a 6". Now, I knew in advance that I'd only be keeping the 3" gun, since that was going to fit best with my collection, but I scrupulously avoided selling the other two and just pocketing the cash; instead, I used them as trade goods to acquire other Smiths I needed...

Now, suppose I had kept the 3" gun, and just sold off the other two. This is hazy. Obviously I bought the package deal for the sole purpose of improving my collection, and kept the one gun as proof, but if I made a profit on the other two...

Lastly, suppose I took advantage of the sweet package deal, and sold off all three at the tidy profit I could have realized...
Click to expand...
The BATFE "opinions" make me ill. I see no useful distinction between holding onto a gun for a day and holding onto it for a year, nor do I see any useful distinction between selling guns and trading guns. Day or year, selling or trading, it's still commerce. The distinction between "private" and "commercial" sale of firearms is garbage, which makes sense because the entire FFL/SOT scheme was devised to make getting certain guns more difficult, not to regulate commerce.

"State of mind" distinctions: whether you buy or trade for something intending to keep it, intending to sell it immediately, or intending to _maybe_ trade it for something else later... that's all garbage as well. State of mind is impossible to verify after the fact, so TPTB end up mounting ridiculously complex circumstantial cases in order to "prove" your state of mind.
novus collectus said:
in addition to what Tamara said, you are considered conducting buisness in firearms when you make more than 10% of your yearly earnings from the profits of sales.
Click to expand...
This seems like some sort of discrimination. It allows avid collectors/traders to legally engage in more trades/sales the wealthier they are. A more reasonable (but still problematic) thing to do would be to have dollar limits; the problem creeps in because valuation of firearms is tricky and requires audits and appraisals, either of which defeats the point of allowing unregulated private-sale transactions in the first place.
 
sabrefanpc, I just watched the Handguns for Sale forum here. Imagine my suprise when the gun I wanted came up, in my state, about 3 weeks after my 18th birthday!
 
Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of
the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the
true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above
example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr.
Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form
4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of
straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the
actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the
dealer's records.

This is straight from the book. So your parents can buy you a handgun if you are under 21- if it is a gift.
 
I have to point out that those are federal laws and your own state may not allow the gift of a handgun without a backround check or other such restriction. I beleive that in Md every handgun transaction has to be done with a bkrnd check (except for FFL holders) even if it is a gift. (for adults, don't think Md allows under 21 possesion.) I wouldn't evevn begin to guess what your state says though.
 
This is straight from the book. So your parents can buy you a handgun if you are under 21- if it is a gift.
Click to expand...
True. What Tamara stated was if you give your money to a parent and they buy the gun, it isn't a "gift." They are specifically buying the gun for you because you cannot legally buy it yourself, which is a straw purchase.

Of course, provided you didn't conspire in front of the FFL, it would be virtually impossible to prove.
 
Unfortunately my parents would not be able to purchase one for me.

I would think any straw purchase would be somewhat difficult to prove. I am pretty new to the world of firearms, and as such have had older and more experienced friends with me most times I go shooting, to a shop, etc. Odds are they would also help me in purchasing a gun, as in which make and model not legal or financially. Them pointing at a gun and me buying it would look like an obvious straw purchase, but it would merely be helpful input. Seems hard to prove either way.
 
I have an idea. Marry someonel over 21 and they can buy the gun and you will just "use" it until your 21 when you can buy it from her. I personally wouldn't get one of my friends to break the law for me even even if it can't be proven in court. Too much for everyone to risk.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top