handgun ammo availability: 9mm vs. 40S&W

WROL = Without Rule of Law.
Heck, we're already there. Judging by the shenanigans going on in DC with our current president.
In addition to stockpiling a supply of ammo, one might want to consider at least having a capability/ability to reload, even if it's not on your top 10 list of favorite things.
For instance, if you own a rifle, consider the Lee Whack a mole kit and a supply of components. At least then you will be able to keep it going, should the need present itself. For handguns, perhaps a Lee hand press and some components for your most common handgun calibers.
 
This is why for the last 6 years I have been selectively been acquiring components and loaded ammo every payday. I have very good stocks of all I need. I also will not be bartering so the other guy can load and make ready in front of me. I still have components and loaded ammo from the Clinton Era when the same thing happened. This time I went ahead and said go stock up now before the Democratic Convention as I saw the winds moving in the Socialist Direction. Good luck in your venture. Plan to buy every payday and budget enough for at least one of the following, a box of ammo, 1000 primers, 1lb of powder, once fired brass, and lead. Reloading has kept my practice pricing way low and having worked at a Gun Range in the 1990's supplied me with tons of brass. Also 9MM brass, 40S&W, and 45ACP brass is some of the easiest to acquire. Lots of sources on the internet and Google is your friend.
 
manta49 said:
There is no problem getting most common handgun ammo here in the UK.

Call me an ignorant American, but I thought you blokes were completely done playing with centerfire handguns over there? :confused:

The ammo shortages that happened just after Obama was elected probably serve as a good yardstick. Everything was in short supply, but the ammo manufacturers concentrated on the most common calibers like .22LR, 9mm, .223, and .45ACP. Less popular calibers like .25, .32, and .380 ACP became almost impossible to find for awhile. I could find .40, but choices were limited and what was available was outrageously expensive.

Bottom line: In a worst-case scenario you'll have to be your own source for ammo and not rely on what will be available on the shelves. No matter what the caliber, it'll be gone by the time you get there.
 
While I agree that reloading might provide options, much like the ammo issue what you have on hand before things take a turn for the worse is what you'll when things take a turn for the worse.

As the '08-'09 Obammoscare progressed, within just a few weeks primers and to a lesser extent propellants and handgun projectiles became hard to obtain and retailers began to limit primer purchases to less than 1,000 per person if they had them to begin with.

In order to reload, one must have the proper supplies since it is nearly impossible to manufacture primers, propellants and some types of projectiles.

I am almost convinced that the best way to insulate oneself against such calamitous conditions is to return to the more primitive firearms like percussion (cap & ball) and flintlock muzzle loading weapons since the components and their materials can be manufactured from more readily available raw materials if the primitive firearm is already in your possession.

One could, given enough care, knowledge and adequate time, cast lead projectiles from wheel weights (they'd be pretty hard, too) and scrap lead alloys, produce black powder from improvised sources (carbon is easy enough, KNO3 or NaNO3 leached from animal waste, sulfur from matches, certain pharmaceuticals and other sources, flint could be knapped for flintlocks and with a little experimentation percussion caps could be manufactured using heavy metallic foils and the chemicals used in "strike anywhere" matches or from other improvised chemicals as an initiator.

Technology is great, but replicating it under adverse conditions would be a pain in the butt.
 
That's why I like to keep at least 1,000 rounds each of .38 Sp, .357, 9mm, .44 Magnum, .45ACP, .223, .30-30, & .30-06 on hand & replenished when used up.
Plus a dozen bricks of .22lr.

I know that's a pittance to some of you real shooters, but I'm retired on a fixed income.
 
When I first started shopping for a new handgun in the early part of 2010, I was surprised to discover that there was an ammo shortage. I had let a former interest in firearms lapse for about 17 years so I wasn't aware of the great gun and ammo buying rush that occurred in 2008-2009 which had made everything scarce.

When I did shop around, the only thing that seemed to be in plentiful supply at the time was .40 S&W, so when I bought a new pistol, that's the caliber I chose.

The gun is a Glock 22, and I later added a drop-in Storm Lake conversion barrel that allows me to shoot 9mm in it, along with a few of the 9mm magazines for the Glock 17 (same size gun). It works perfectly with both barrels and both calibers, so I guess I have the best of both worlds.

I have found now that the shortage is over, that practice ammo is much cheaper in 9mm, but that in self defense loads, 40 S&W is often cheaper than similar 9mm ammo for equivalent bullets (Federal HST for instance).

Regarding stocking up on ammo for use during long periods of sustained gun-battles - well, I'm not so much worried about that ever happening, but I have found that to save money, it works out best to order in lots of 10 boxes or so from Internet ammo stores, so I do have a pretty good stockpile for each caliber of firearm I own. Not for WROL situations, but because it's cheaper that way!
 
Shooters,

Three things.

1. Wow. The resident knowledge here at TFL is just, incredible. I learn something new everyday.

2. I apologize for not explaining the acronym, "WROL". I had heard it a lot (and I know nutnfancy has popularized the term), so I thought it was common usage. My mistake.

3. I could read threads about survivalism all day from you all (see #1 above), but it doesn't belong in this "general handgun" forum. Can I refocus the discussion?

Conventional wisdom: 9x19mm is the most popular centerfire pistol caliber

My question: While this may be true on a global scale, could the overwhelming popularity of .40S&W in the American law enforcement community potentially make that caliber (and not 9mm) easier to "get" (purchase, scrounge, reload, whatever) depending on where you live? (Assuming you live in the United States.)

For example, I could easily see how some guy in Jersey would be more likely to run across .40S&W since there are probably few private pistols but (comparatively) lots of LEOs with their service sidearms. Thus, in like, Princeton NJ:​

private pistols, not chambered in .40S&W < private + LEO pistols in .40S&W​

And thus:​

total aggregate availability of non .40S&W ammunition < total availability/supply of .40S&W

Probably also true in New York NY, Chicago IL, Washington DC, etc. In contrast, if you lived in Burlington VT, Saint Louis MO or Richmond VA, you'd probably find lots of private stashes of 9x19mm (and .380ACP and .45ACP and 10mm) in addition to the .40S&W fired by LEOs (and individuals).​

It seems like most of you are answering, "Well, yes. Duh. Conventional wisdom does not apply equally, everywhere." Roger, got it. Just something to keep in mind, I guess. It'd be interesting if there was some way you could quantify this. You couldn't just go by number of firearms or boxes of ammunition sold, or anything like that. You'd have to track every single bullet to come up with something like:

Within a 25-mile radius of where I live in Arizona, there are:
- 400,000 rounds of 9x19mm (100,000 at my local military base, 100,000 at various precincts, 200,000 in the hands of private citizens)
- 800,000 rounds of .40S&W (500,000 at various precincts, 300,000 in the hands of private citizens)
- 200,000 rounds of .45ACP (5,000 at the local military base, 50,000 at various precincts, 175,000 in the hands of private citizens)​

Though I'm sure libertarians would just looove for that to happen.

very respectfully,
Moose

P.S. I've been shooting for just a few years now (alas, didn't grow up shooting like many of you all), and used to sneer at people who had a firearm for every caliber. I thought the name of the game was to be economical/pragmatic, so I just stocked up on the most "common" calibers -- .22LR, 9x19mm, 5.56x45mm, and 12 gauge. The thinking was that if I really needed to do so, I could always scrounge/scavenge for these popular calibers, and since I'm in the military as well, I figured I'd always have access to these. Now I'm thinking, well, maybe it's not such a bad idea to have firearms chambered in an alternate yet still highly popular pistol caliber (.40S&W) and rifle caliber (7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm)...and maybe reloading is something to think about. Am I a flip-flopper? Is this just an evolution in thinking? <shrug>
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
There is no problem getting most common handgun ammo here in the UK .
Call me an ignorant American, but I thought you blokes were completely done playing with centerfire handguns over there?




Just as different parts of America have different gun laws so does the UK.

Handguns where not banned in all of the UK
 
Hey, that's news to me. I thought y'all had a blanket ban covering the entire country.
Which areas are not included, and what are their general rules?
 
Moose: said:
Within a 25-mile radius of where I live in Arizona, there are:
- 400,000 rounds of 9x19mm (100,000 at my local military base, 100,000 at various precincts, 200,000 in the hands of private citizens)
- 800,000 rounds of .40S&W (500,000 at various precincts, 300,000 in the hands of private citizens)
- 200,000 rounds of .45ACP (5,000 at the local military base, 50,000 at various precincts, 175,000 in the hands of private citizens)

Moose,

Assuming that these numbers are correct (it really doesn't matter so let's just accept them as being valid), your analysis above seems to have an underlying presumtion that somehow you'll be able to "lay hands" on them.

I am not accusing you of being naive, but rather I am asking your thought processes are as to how any of these 1.4 million rounds of assorted ammunition would find its way into your possession given the nature of a WROL/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation predicated in your initial argument?
 
what 'anonimoose' said...

anonimoose put it properly - absence or presence of particular caliber choice by particular LE agency close to you is irrelevant to you unless you believe they will start hanging their ammo out to people 'from the goodness of their heart' or you are willing to attack them to take it. Besides putting things in perspective, even taking Chicago that I am familiar with - there are at least 100k legal FOID registrations in Chicago alone ( over 1.2 million in Illinois) , 40k+ recent Chicago permit registrations that are primarily handguns (and we are talking about people going through effort of certification, additional training, compliance, high fees ,etc). For comparison , there are 13k sworn police officers in Chicago police department (15k total employees), a lot less than numbers above.

Pick something you find 'enough' for you and stock 'enough' of it -
common 'enough' to buy
cheap 'enough' to practice
caliber you believe will do the job 'enough' for you if you do yours (hit where you supposed to)
caliber you can carry in 'enough' capacity as needed.

Only you can tell how much is 'enough' for the questions above

Of choice location matters somewhat, if I were back in Russia, my rifles would 'seven' (7.62x39) and 'five' (5.45x39) current service calibers easily available everywhere with 7.62x54R (mosin, RPK, SVD) for long range capability. Hangun in 9x19 and 9x18, with 7.62x25 (TT, PPSh ,etc) if there are money left over as this caliber was produced in tens of millions. Getting .223 or .308 in Russia is stupid as there is no easy way to feed them (308 getting some acceptance for hunting but not enough to overcome existing comparable calibers to compensate for additional cost). So location matters but less for foraging capability than cost/availability/practicality matter.

In US, it is easier to focus on building a rifle/handgun system that offers not only caliber compatibility but also magazine comparability. I.E. Glock 17 with spare 22LR barrel + Kel Tec sub 2000 in caliber will accept same intechangable magazines. Add to it another Glock in .40 and get 9mm barrel for it and you have a battery of arms that could carry you from handgun to rifle giving you plenty of options.
 
Hmmm...interesting.

SimChi: said:
anonimoose put it properly - absence or presence of particular caliber choice by particular LE agency close to you is irrelevant to you unless you believe they will start hanging their ammo out to people 'from the goodness of their heart' or you are willing to attack them to take it.

I thought that I said that. :D

481: said:
4.) The idea of running across a miltary base or police station and obtaining 9mm (or any other ammunition for that matter) from them is ridiculous. They, too, will also be subject to the same market forces that you are and finding themselves in that situation will not be handing out ammunition to "the less fortunate" and "unprepared". They will need what little ammunition they have in their possession to execute their duties and that means that they won't be letting any of it go without a real good reason. Your failure to plan will not constitute an emergency on their behalf.

5.) If something truly horrendous comes to pass (a huge meteor strike obliterates 2/3rds of the North American Continent, a nuclear event/EMP strike, aliens arrive who see us only as a food stock, a biological disaster of biblical proportion, etc.) supply will likely never catch-up with demand and the only way you'll be scrounging or scavenging ammunition is by picking it from the bodies of the dead and dying or killing people for it. Nobody'll want to barter ammunition because it can be used against them afterwards to take what little they have unless they've just flat out given up. A post-catastrophic barter economy will be utterly ruthless. Count on it.
 
Armybrat. Quote.
Hey, that's news to me. I thought y'all had a blanket ban covering the entire country.

Which areas are not included, and what are their general rules.

Hi The handgun ban did not apply to N Ireland. Which is part of the UK. I have changed my location to save any confusion. If you are in a gun club you can get any handgun any caliber, if you have had a terrorist threat then you can get one for personal protection. Not to get into a caliber war but the largest caliber you are allowed for personal protection is 9mm.
 
what "481" said :)

"I thought that I said that"

Yes,"481" sorry - read your message and agreed with decided to respond. My excuse is that my daughter was born yesterday and I am running without sleep :)
 
WROL was a new one to me, thanks for explaining it. I would, however, like to add a couple of modifiers.

WROLAA (without Rule of Law AT ALL)
WROLAAEA (Without Rule of Law AT ALL EVER AGAIN)

Now, we have forum rules against discussions of the zombie apocalypse, TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it), and other similiar situations, because they are all, in the end, fantasy and a waste of forum space.

WROL is, however a credible situation, provided you realize that it is going to be a localized and temporary condition. Such as hurricane or other disaster cutting off an area temporarily, and existing law enforcement agencies being temporarily overwhelmed.

While it may be fun intelectual speculation, the idea of getting more ammo (for anything) in such a situation is pure fantasy. And the reasons are simple;
First, and most important, the ammo belongs to somebody, and in a lawless situation, they simply are not going to sell or barter, let alone give you any.

Basic capitalism and human greed are going to be hard at work in that kind of situation. The ONLY thing more important than weapons and ammo is food and water. And food and water are more easily shared (parted with) during such a crisis, because they are a renewable resource. Things may be short right now, but if we survive, we can grow more food, and water can be purified. SO, people will be more willing to sell/barter/share food and water, at least until stocks become so low that starvation is in sight before relief is expected.

NOT SO with ammo. You aren't going to get it from the cops, or the military, the plain fact is that if you approach them peacefully and ask, they are much more likely to take yours away from you!

Stores will be closed, most likely, and even picking up rounds off the "bodies of the dead" or from their empty homes & warehouses is looting, and the "authorities" (let alone private citizens protecting their property) are likely to shoot you on sight, if caught in the act of looting! Getting replacement ammo that way is a very, very BAD IDEA.

Which brings up my second point, why would you need it, to begin with? Are you going to be shooting everything that moves within handgun range? Not a good plan. Gonna be standing off the starving hordes of less prepared desperate people with your handgun(s)? Maybe, I suppose its possible, but considering what that would take to be successful, I don't think its a very credible situation. And also, when Rule of Law returns (and barring the end of the world, it WILL RETURN) you are going to be held accountable for your actions. Probably to a much looser standard than pre-WROL times, but still, you will be held accountable by the authorities in some fashion. Count on that.

Another thing to consider is that total WROL is unlikely to extend to more than a small area, and even though many places have passed laws against it, the authorities are going to confiscate all the arms and ammo they find, every time they can. Count on that too. Even those that will obey the law and not confiscate arms "for public safety" are going to forbid the sale. Its the current law nearly everywhere that if there is a declared emergency (and this is going to happen well before they actually declare martial law) that all sales of firearms, ammo, and alcohol are suspended in the affected areas.

The bottom line is, if there is any large scale disruption in civil order, if you need ammo, you are NOT going to be able to count on getting it.

Best to have what you feel is the minimum you would need to ride out the crisis, on hand, where you can get it. Thousands of rounds in a secure cache in the mountains (or where ever) does you no good if you can't get to it, either.

So, lets keep this discussion on reasonably possible situations and not how to shoot your way through the end of all that is, or this thread will end.
If, its not already be too late!:rolleyes:
 
Yes,"481" sorry - read your message and agreed with decided to respond. My excuse is that my daughter was born yesterday and I am running without sleep.

Congrats! That'll do the trick.

This is nothing though...just wait 'til she starts dating. Now there's a prescription for sleeplessness!
 
Hey manta, nothing wrong with a 9mm. Even though I prefer my Springfield GI .45 and Kahr CW45 pistols, my Ruger SR9 (17+1) is a lot of fun to shoot - and there are quite a few excellent SD rounds to load it up with:

DellDiamondsuite031.jpg
 
44 AMP,

You pointed out a few things that I neglected to consider or didn't consider as deeply as you.

44 AMP: said:
NOT SO with ammo. You aren't going to get it from the cops, or the military, the plain fact is that if you approach them peacefully and ask, they are much more likely to take yours away from you!
Stores will be closed, most likely, and even picking up rounds off the "bodies of the dead" or from their empty homes & warehouses is looting, and the "authorities" (let alone private citizens protecting their property) are likely to shoot you on sight, if caught in the act of looting! Getting replacement ammo that way is a very, very BAD IDEA.

Which brings up my second point, why would you need it, to begin with? Are you going to be shooting everything that moves within handgun range? Not a good plan. Gonna be standing off the starving hordes of less prepared desperate people with your handgun(s)? Maybe, I suppose its possible, but considering what that would take to be successful, I don't think its a very credible situation. And also, when Rule of Law returns (and barring the end of the world, it WILL RETURN) you are going to be held accountable for your actions. Probably to a much looser standard than pre-WROL times, but still, you will be held accountable by the authorities in some fashion. Count on that.

Good job.
 
Instead of get both (9mm and .40) do this...

Get a Glock in .357 Sig. Then get a Lone Wolf .40 S&W barrel. And then a Lone Wolf 9mm barrel. And just for good measure get a AACK .22 unit for it.

That way you have a .22, 9mm, .357 Sig, and .40 S&W.

And ammo problems won't be so bad!

Deaf
 
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