Hand to Hand Training Styles

Jinenkan! I saw their web page for the first time just the other day. Interesting to say the least.

Anyone on the forum training is other exotics such as Krav Maga, Pankration, Shooto, you name it! Lets talk about it.
 
The Bujinkan interpretation of kata using an uke sounds similar to the Parker/Tracy Kenpo karate system of techniques. The format is a good way to learn how to position your body in relation to your attacker.

I employ concepts from Kali (especially Dog Brothers stick fighting), Muay Thai, and Brazilian jiujitsu to form my technique matrix. All share an emphasis on real time, real contact training, which I feel many systems lack. You can only punch the air or perform techniques at reduced power or speed so much until you need to test them out and see if they really work for you.
 
A very popular mix Hilton, one that I kinda like. The Dog Brother matches are a lovely way to get bruised on a Saturday morning, arn't they.
 
If I may add my meager two cents worth, it's extremely hard to find people who really know their katas. Although I lack sufficient training to know for sure, I've noticed a distinctive difference in teaching style with traditional Eastern folks. Namely, they prefer to guide you by being one step ahead of you. They want you to figure things out for yourself. If you don't, you don't advance. Us westerners, I've noticed, will pretty much talk you through it. Of course, if someone still doesn't get it, what can you do? Traditional katas have many layers of subtleties that a student have to peel away and grasp.

Unfortunately, it is extremely hard to tell who knows it and who doesn't. Those who do won't show it to you since it's how they traditionally test you. Those who don't, well, until we have realized it for ourselves, how are we suppose to know? And how are we suppose to know if they don't know it? To make things more complicated than it already is, many katas depends on the mission statement of the style itself. For example, you probably aren't going to find layers of combative subtleties in a kata from a style that is only concerned with sports. Other roles of katas are used to identify and authenticate the style that you are in. Thus, the existance of the kata and its true meaning is known only to those who are in the genuine inner circle. Perhaps the most important role that katas serve is that they act as a "time capsule" in which decades if not centuries of combative subtleties and "secrets" are encapsulated within a formalized set of movements. That way, no matter what happens, the "secrets" aren't distorted or lost through time. Also, even if it's passed down from a clueless instructor, the subtleties and secrets of a particular style is preserved every time someone is able to grasp the kata (though I wouldn't hold my breath).

If you really want to know what I think about the whole thing, from a learning perspective, I say don't worry about katas at first. It's too hard to figure out the real deal from the fake. Find instructors who are on the same wavelength that you are on. Real deal combative techniques and "secrets" can still be taught by a extremely good instructor piecemeal with or without katas and whether or not the student realizes it or not. Don't get me wrong. Genuine combative katas are extremely important not only for its practical use, but for its tradition. But in the end, what really matters is that we make sure that we place ourselves in very capable hands. (Of course, finding capable instructors are another matter all to itself....)

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 12-09-98).]
 
SB,

That is great insight. I agree with you about the Kata being incredibly important to the traditions of the art. I think there are only a very small percentage of people preactiving that treat it that way, though.

In my own cynical mind, the Kata is the indentity of the art and without identity the International Association of Wak-Dat-Dood-Now can't become popular and open new dojos and make money. Too many Dojos use Katas as the tool to attract and promote students. Make the students feel like they are accomplishing something and they will keep coming back and keep spreading the word about their art.

I am sure that everyone here is very serious about their art and belongs to an honorable Dojo, but when my wife and I met she was an student in Wado-Ryu, she has continued, off and on, with her studies and been promoted. The thing was, I saw her get promoted once when she really hadn't learned a damn thing. We had been out of town a lot, but she attended a few extra classes when we were in town and took tapes of the instructor teacher the Katas with her when we travelled. I was stunned when she was invited to the belt test with the rest of her group that she had been promoted to the previous belt with. After that, I got pretty down on her particular Dojo.
I have seen this kind of thing too often with many different Dojos. If you pay your fees and "try," you stand a great chance of being promoted. I have seen big huge fat obese guys and gals who could hardly walk gracefully pass what should have been complicated katas (and be out of breath at the end of it). Sorta like the way in the military sex and age can give you breaks on PT tests, these people were getting fat breaks on competency tests.

This kind of stuff is what has really turned me off on formal eastern martial arts training in general.

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-Essayons
 
Well, I don't know that I'd go so far in Kata-bashing. If you're out to learn practical street self defense, kata is probably useless.

If you're out to master an art, kata is as important as dry fire practice to a Master Sniper. It teaches muscle memory, instinctive movement, speed, power and fluidity...unfortunately, it does so only over a very long period of time.

Granted, few of us aspire to becoming a Yuck Foo Grandmaster....few of us aspire to being a Master Rifleman (1,000 yard plus). But if you *do* wish to become either, expect to put thousands of hours into actions that are worthless to the general (and competent) HtH trainee or combat shooter.
Rich
 
I'd like to hear the board's feelings on Brazilian (Gracie) Jiu-Jitsu. Since a majority of "fights" end up on the ground, including those involving LEOs, I would think that being skilled in ground fighting (locks, chokes, grappling, etc) would be very beneficial, especially to LEOs. Your thoughts?
 
McKea,

I agree with you that mastering ground fighting techniques are incredibly important to "controlling" and opponent (see the end of my first post in this thread), especially for LEOs. With an LEO there is not an option to "stun & run", ie- it is not good enough to throw a strike to the throat or eyes and make tracks. An LEO must see the engagement through, to include the taking into custody of the opponent.



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-Essayons
 
I am not a real HTH Martial artist. I took some years of this and that. Army gave me its version of HTH and the Academy gave me it own... KOGA and PPCT. I took up Kick Boxing for fun... Learned some Kendo, Shotokan & Jujitsu.
Putting it all together I can pretty much hold my own. With all the above mixed up - what would that be called? Street Fighting?
The only point that I believe in came from Sun Tsu - Hit the other guy first, and hit him hard enough that he can't hit back. When it all hits the fan - that has proven to be the methodology that has worked the best.

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
kodiac@hotbot.com
 
I think that the Brazilians truly changed the complexion of how we look at HtH in this day and age. They have some great stuff and several are excellent teachers. What you must be careful of though is; a number of the Brazilians coming to the US are sport oriented only. They will all tell you they have a NHB background, but in reality they have very very little. A sport guy is very happy to keep someone in the guard forever, thats a way he gains points. As I beleive Rob said, for LEO's that shouldn't be our goal. Ground skills (as well as striking, and firearms and impact weapons) are essential skills. But keeping in mind the restrections associatied with those skills. Rolling around on your back, with a big drunk wife beater on top of you, with 30 extra pounds of gear makes for intresting training. On the same standpoint, I'd rather have that training than none at all.

A second issue. As with Koreans in the 60's, if you say your from Brazil and speak Portuguese, you must be a jiu jitsu instructor. Let the buyer beware. Some of these guys are here for a quick buck and as soon as the flurry over BJJ is over(I think its dying already) they'll be outa here.

On the positive note, what the Brazilians did (and specifically the Gracie family) is take a grappling sport (turn of the century Kodokan judo) and transform it to have street fight capabilities. From this hybrid systems have formed and will continue to.

I think we are on the edge of knocking the dust off of the perception of combatives in this country. Systems for their original purpose, fighting. Not to collect medals, or find one's center, or to be a tv star. To some those are worthwhile goals and they should be pursued. But the hard reality is, several of us want to and need to be proficient in combat, with whatever course we take.

Bruce Lee said "all knowledge is ultimately self knowledge". We draw from our experiences and make that learning the most effective tool to reach our goal.
 
Mike makes a good point about the quality of Brazilian jiujitsu instructors -- being able to say "gward" and call everyone "my fren, my fren" does not a great instructor make. Most schools tend to teach to sport aspects, like the one at which I now train (it's the only one near me). My prior training in BJJ and Dog Bros involved a greater awareness of striking opportunities that aren't emphasized in sport BJJ. Striking makes a big difference in creating or leaving openings for techniques. That said, I feel that the Brazilian style has a solid matrix of ground fighting positions from which to work. The positions of guard, mount, side control, cross body, sit out, are a road map to where you want to take the fight. Every other position is just something on the way to the other positions. This type of organization provides a solid foundation for the fighter to organize their game plan.

For LEO's and other weapons bearing types, the BJJ emphasis on closing and going to the ground creates problems for weapon retention. It's hard to protect that weapon side at all times when you're rolling around on the ground. Likewise, rolling around can be difficult with a duty belt or bulky body armor. Helpful here is to remember to keep hard accessories like cuffs (the major offender on most belts) off the centerline/spine area. Though this should be readily apparent upon sitting down in the cruiser, many people seem to miss this vital subtlety for serious injury prevention. For LEO's, grappling is a part of everyday interactions with subjects. It's far easier to be well trained and be able to resort to grappling rather than only striking -- there's less 'splainin' to do after effecting the arrest.
 
I'm sorry, but BJJ is way over-hyped. Ground fighting is an integral part of unarmed combat that the American public is only recently exposed to, but is still mesmerized by. Now EVERYBODY'S doing BJJ. It's as if we're just a school of unthinking fish that floats from fad to fad with each passing decade. Karate, Ninjitsu, TKD, BJJ.. what's next? Truth is, for LEOs, I think a much better general strategy is Aikijujitsu. Rolling on the ground is best avoided if possible.

Thanks for letting me vent. :)
 
I think that the answer we are looking for is "balance". We are striving for a "system" that covers all potential ranges of combat. Grounds skills, regardless where you get them from are as vital as standing, as the use of weapons, so on and so on. No one system these days hold the answer. Thats why most of us (judging from the coversations) tend to train or at least expose ourselves to what is out there. I began my firearms training with my father, then progressed to the police academy, Gunsite, H&K, the FBI, NRA, Deni Chalker, Harry Humphries, Jack Furr and the list goes on. I didn't stick with what my father taught me, not that it was bad, just I had to change for my needs.
My goal should be to make sure that the others systems that I study, are compatible with each other, in an effort to "trim the fat" so to speak.
 
MKEAA, sorry this post is so late.

I learned some interesting things about Brazilian JJ recently.

In the case of the Gracies, if you spar with them, they will really restrict what moves you can make. Also, they like to start out with their hands and arms in a "high" position. When they do this, many will match this high stance, and when you do, they will dive low at you, and down you go.

They really like the arm bar, and I forget the proper name for the other technique they frequently use. The fact is, both of those moves can be easily(!) overcome, once you know how. This is not a slam on the Gracies, it's just that almost all martial arts have, IMHO, effective counter moves, and that makes them potentially less effective.
 
Mr. Mike Mello, that was a great post! I will remember it so that I can always refer to it as something that I should always strive for. Good job!

Shutoku Shia
shia@dataphysics.com
 
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