H2O case volume to powder charge amount question

I'd love to see some of those H20 differences in those 150gr cases in comparison to cases that weigh closer to 180gr and if you use the same components in any and what the differences are to get the same velocities and or barrel/dwell time .

Not asking for you to do anything extra but if you already have some of that data logged . I'd sure like to have a see :)
 
Metal god wrote:

OK. Lets start with the basics:
1) How are you measuring case volume?
2) Give us the actual situation, not hypothetical please.

1) First I check to be sure all case samples are trimmed to the same length
2) I weigh a empty fire formed case .
3) Fill that same case with water and weigh it
4) subtract the empty case weight from the filled case weight to get my H20 case volume
5) repeat at least 5 times with 5 different cases to get an average


The only published data I have for .308 Winchester W-W cases is 53.5 grains of water.
Assuming that's the case in your hypothetical situation, you can use your numbers to compare.
 
The only published data I have for .308 Winchester W-W cases is 53.5 grains of water.

If that's published data , would that be sized cases rather then fire formed ?

My 55gr made up number was not really made up . That is the weight of my LC-12-LR cases . My WCC-06 cases are 55.3 . These were both fire formed before measuring . The made up numbers were the other higher and lower weights .
 
That value is too low for Case Water Overflow Capacity (CWOC), but it's about right for Case Water Capacity (CWC) with the Sierra 155 grain Palma bullet seated to 2.800" COL. CWOC is how much water the empty case will hold level with the case mouth. CWC is how much water will fit under the seated bullet. The CWOC applies to a case all the time, while CWC depends on bullet length and seating depth. So, even with the same case, CWC varies with different bullet designs, weights, and COL's.

The history of Winchester brass is that the pre-90's brass was about like Remington or others. But the '92 Palma match hosted by the U.S. changed things. If you are familiar with Palma, you will know the International Palma Match is held every four years and the host country rotates (the U.S. had it again in 2015). The rules in '92 still required the use of 308 Winchester or 7.62 NATO ammunition with a bullet not over 156 grains in weight. (This changed in 2012 under the ICFRA governing body, and 223/5.6 is now allowed, and bullet choice is now up to the shooter, I believe). At the time of the '92 match, the host country was required to supply ammunition for the match and to provide practice ammunition in the exact same load to teams that participated. Under Mid Tompkin's urging, Sierra agreed to come up with the first 155 grain Plama bullet for this, and Winchester agreed to come up with a new case that would increase powder capacity to maximize the velocities possible with it.

To reach its goal, Winchester came up with a semi-balloon head case design. This reduced brass weight and made the CWOC increase to close to 60 grains of water. These cases weighed about 150 grains. Subsequently, Winchester has maintained the semi-balloon head and put it in many of their other cases, like 30-06. I assumed this was to save on brass costs. What's funny is that the brass has gradually gotten heavier again since then. The brass I had in the 156 grain range has about 59 grains CWOC. Now people are reporting up to 166 grains case weight, which, unless the head diameter is greater, is going to mean another grain or so of capacity is gone. I don't know what the reason is. Some blame outsourcing. It's possible, I suppose, that there were reloading life complaints with the lighter stuff. The main worry is that older load data from Hodgdon or others is based on larger capacity cases.

So, if anyone out there has some current production Winchester and want's to do a measurement, that would be dandy to see shared.

semi-balloon%20head_zpsfjenfjcm.gif
 
Among reloaders there is an element that goes something like “Repeat after me”. Back when reloaders declared the military case was thicker because It was heavier. The best I could manage from that jewel of memory work was ‘it was a half truth’. There is weight and there are dimensions. Rather than “repeat after them’ I measured cases for thickness. I found military case heads to be thinner; most of the military case heads to be .200” from the top cup to the case head. I compared military cases to commercial R-P cases and found the RP case heads to be .260” thick. Meaning; the R-P case head was thicker than the surplus case head. Additional meaning when using deductive reasoning; if the military case head was thiner but heavier the case body had to be thicker; that also means the R-P case body was thinner.

More deductive reasoning; if the case head is thinner and the case body is thicker the powder column has to be longer and thinner than the powder column of the R=P case; because it would be shorter and larger in diameter.

Does the powder column affect the test? There is the WSM and WSSM etc. Cases can weigh the same but not be the same.
 
All good points. Any attempt to use weight to determine capacity depends on "all else being equal", when it seldom is. Not only do you have thickness differences, but, to a lesser extent, there are also different densities for the range of brass alloys used to make cartridge cases. These can go from about 8.4 g/cc to about 8.7 g/cc.

I once took a mixed batch of 308 Win cases and tried to use their weight to predict their differences in measured CWOC. The accuracy of the predicted differences was about ±20%. So there's a trend there, but it doesn't have a very tight correlation. That's why changes in powder charge estimated based on a measured case weight difference has should be worked toward incrementally to ensure you are actually getting what you expect from it.
 
New-ish Winchester case volume test

I have some new once fired Win cases . When I say new I mean bought new in the last 4 years and to be more specific . Likely bought between 2012 & 2014 . I don't have many because I just never bought much Winchester ammo so I only tested 3 of each ( I have 60-ish in total ). 3 cases with nickle coating and 3 standard pieces . Because they had been sitting in a bag for a few years I do not know which of my 308's these where fired in . What I did was found 3 of each case type that dropped/fit in a case gauge the same and had what appeared to be the same slightly off center primer strike .

I trimmed all 6 cases to the same size then weighed each case . I then filled with water to flush with case mouth and weighed again . Results below

--------Standard cases-------------_________----------------Nickle coated--------

Empty_165.8--162.9--163.0___________________164.4--166.6--165.0
Full___222.9--219.8--219.1___________________221.8--223.8--222.0
H20____57.7----56.9---56.1____________________57.4---57.4---57.0

I then sized all cases using a Redding FL type "S" bushing die with out expander . I then trimmed all cases to the same length and ran the test again NOTE in the sized case test the cases are NOT in the same order as above but as you will see it appears you can tell which cases are which .

Empty_163.0--163.0--165.7___________________166.8--164.6--165.0
Full___219.7--218.5--222.0___________________222.4--220.8--221.0
H20___56.7----55.5----56.3____________________55.6---56.2---56.0

UN - I hope that's what you were looking for ? Let me know if You'd like any additional info
 
Last edited:
Back
Top