Blind Tree Frog
New member
Judo wise at least, most schools are sport oriented. Make sure you talk to the instructor about your self defense desires.
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H2H or martial arts?
- Thread starter GreenDragon
- Start date
Long time ago in japan the samurai developed a fighting style that developed into JuJitsu (note, an -istu ending means it's focused on fighting/war, a -do ending means it's focused more on the self/sport). Problem is, the training for this basically consisted of getting into battles. Lots of people died and it didn't really work.
So this guy came along (who's name I don't remember, but I really should) and developed Judo which was a more friendly version. Structured rules meant that they could train in a controled enviroment and still become highly leathal. In fact, the test of skill was basically walking into the red light district of town, picking a fight, and dropping the guy in one hit. If it took more then one, you weren't good enough yet.
Judo got popular and was selected as a "state martial arts" of sorts. Eventually this lead to Judo vs Jujitsu competitions which judo won every time (except one back in day). Not that this really means anything, but I took judo, so forgive me for bragging. Anyhow, because of this, Jujistu fell by the way side and Judo took over in it's place.
Couple decades ago a branch of judo broke off and took the name of Jujitsu. I don't remember which branch or anything, I just remember it happened. Anyhow, the Gracies studied this and went back to brazil, which at the time was fairly brutal place to live. Now, the Gracies were a massive family. Basically the way that they trained was one would want to try a new move out, so he'd pick a fight at a party. The other 30 gracies at the party would keep the fight to just the two of them while the Gracie tried out the new move. Needless to say, it got a reputation of being a very brutal style (which is why I dont like a lot of BJJ practicioners). As far as what is different between it and Jujistu or the original JJ, I can't say.
- The guy who invented Judo was named Kano.
- You're the first one I've heard say the Gracies developed their art by fighting at parties instead of in the vale tudo ring and with each other.
- The Gracies did not leave Brazil. Helio Gracie and, I believe, his brother were taught Japanese jiu-jitsu by a visiting Japanese citizen to whom their father had been a help.
- You're also the first guy I've ever heard characterize BJJ and Gracie JJ in particular as "brutal," especially in comparison to Judo.
- Most of the differences between GJJ and JJJ are in the Gracies' use of the "guard" and their freewheeling approaching to rolling and setting up submissions, the result of adapting the art to no-holds-barred and MMA competition.
Blind Tree Frog
New member
Thank you, I felt bad for not remembering that.The guy who invented Judo was named Kano.
I picked that up from another forum who gave more or less the same history i gave (though he had more detail. That's what I get for being out of the loop for so long).You're the first one I've heard say the Gracies developed their art by fighting at parties instead of in the vale tudo ring and with each other.
Honestly, I'd wager it was a mix of both. They had to train somewhere before they reached the ring. Do you have any idea where that might of occured? While I like the party idea, if it is in correct, I'd rather stop spreading it.
EDIT:
http://www.bjjboulder.com/adult/about.php
Some mix of both seems to be a good guess actually. Though I'd wager if the party stuff did occur, it would be the sons and not Helio and Carlos since when I was told it, the comment was that it was a large collection of them that could keep the fight small between just the two.The mean streets of Brazil acted as very good testing grounds for these new modifications. Tested over and over again in challenge matches and professional Vale Tudo (No holds barred) fights, these new fighting techniques proved to be the most effective form of self defense around.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/gracie.html this also supports the street fighting part of the training. It also lists some BJJ vs Judo fights I didn't know about.
Thanks for the correction. I felt that I was wrong saying that how I did, but I couldn't remember if some of them went to japan or a sensei came to them.The Gracies did not leave Brazil. Helio Gracie and, I believe, his brother were taught Japanese jiu-jitsu by a visiting Japanese citizen to whom their father had been a help.
I had heard that frequently from various sources. Generally in the same breath that they are saying that it is the most effective martial art in the world. So yeah, I'm hearing it from idiots who may not understand the context.You're also the first guy I've ever heard characterize BJJ and Gracie JJ in particular as "brutal," especially in comparison to Judo.
On a side note, you find judo more brutal?
Thanks, I never was clear on that difference.Most of the differences between GJJ and JJJ are in the Gracies' use of the "guard" and their freewheeling approaching to rolling and setting up submissions, the result of adapting the art to no-holds-barred and MMA competition..
Any other corrections that you would like to add? (no really, I would rather that long post be correct, then long and full of inaccuracies to confuse people).
A more complete history:
http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html
EDIT:
Gah, I hate histories that say that Jiujitsu originated in india. I understand why they say that, but they really don't need to. Since I feel like venting.
there were a couple fighting styles that started in india and what not. Now, kung fu actually derived from this because the man that taught the monks came up from india (fun story). Since that area of asia is so well travelled, it spread pretty easily.
Eventually a grappling style came about in japan which was similiar to the stuff coming out of india a long time ago. Whether it was samurai going to the mainland and studying there or just witnessing it and trying to figure something out on their own that's similar, or just coincidently developing a similar style I've not yet heard anything conclusive on, but most of the discussion i've heard leans towards the latter two.
Really doesn't matter though. All sufficently old cultures will develop a fighting style. Even the French.
Origins of Martial arts
Judo's founder was Prof.Jigoro Kano, and yes it is a milder form of ju-jitsu which essentially is a type of combat wrestling. It is also naturally of much more recent origin. Judo was taught in police departments worldwide, and it is interesting to note that President Roosevelt [of rough-rider corps. fame] was an early student. His first students lived together with him, as is often found in the older mainland monastic system of training and education, where their training and even diet was strictly supervised. Judo means "gentle way" in Japanese. Outside of wrestling and boxing it became the first full contact Olympic fighting sport. Prof. Kano did for this discipline what the great Masutatsu Oyama did years later for Karate. Interestingly enough Oyama did actually start out by studying Kodokan judo, so some grappling techniques can be found in Oyama karate, which he founded, but which is more properly classed as a variant of Kyukoshinkai karate. Oyama karate is a fantastic method of self-defense, but requires a tough physical training system.
True enough, any society old enough will evolve fighting systems of their own, but the Asian as opposed to Western systems, were fused with the religious and spiritual dimension. Buddhist monks, who early carried the mantle of this spiritual - religious system, and developed it, were for example forbidden to carry weapons. Naturally, to defend against armed assailants, these barehand techniques had to be developed to a tremendous degree. Witness the development of karate in Okinawa, where the people learned to use farming implements as weapons were prohibited by feudal lords. In the new world, the development of Capoeira by slaves followed a similar path.
Judo's founder was Prof.Jigoro Kano, and yes it is a milder form of ju-jitsu which essentially is a type of combat wrestling. It is also naturally of much more recent origin. Judo was taught in police departments worldwide, and it is interesting to note that President Roosevelt [of rough-rider corps. fame] was an early student. His first students lived together with him, as is often found in the older mainland monastic system of training and education, where their training and even diet was strictly supervised. Judo means "gentle way" in Japanese. Outside of wrestling and boxing it became the first full contact Olympic fighting sport. Prof. Kano did for this discipline what the great Masutatsu Oyama did years later for Karate. Interestingly enough Oyama did actually start out by studying Kodokan judo, so some grappling techniques can be found in Oyama karate, which he founded, but which is more properly classed as a variant of Kyukoshinkai karate. Oyama karate is a fantastic method of self-defense, but requires a tough physical training system.
True enough, any society old enough will evolve fighting systems of their own, but the Asian as opposed to Western systems, were fused with the religious and spiritual dimension. Buddhist monks, who early carried the mantle of this spiritual - religious system, and developed it, were for example forbidden to carry weapons. Naturally, to defend against armed assailants, these barehand techniques had to be developed to a tremendous degree. Witness the development of karate in Okinawa, where the people learned to use farming implements as weapons were prohibited by feudal lords. In the new world, the development of Capoeira by slaves followed a similar path.
Blind Tree Frog
New member
Yeah, and i believe that this is where the India stuff starts from. Since the monks were originally trained by a monk who came up from India. He had relatively new ideas that I don't believe were being taught in india at the time (a lot of the chi stuff was his devising originally I believe). From there it spread over asia I would guess. That's just why I have issue about them saying it came from india as if to downplay the development in japan or china.True enough, any society old enough will evolve fighting systems of their own, but the Asian as opposed to Western systems, were fused with the religious and spiritual dimension. Buddhist monks, who early carried the mantle of this spiritual - religious system, and developed it, were for example forbidden to carry weapons.
Para Bellum
New member
ATK is a german system spread in europe
...for ,ore info check out www.atk.at or http://www.b-a-e.de/index.php/content/blogcategory/0/190/
after some 10 years of Tae-Kwon-Do, some Kickboxing and Judo I chose ATK. It's a radical, mostly no-nonsense and no-competition system that offers a solution and finishes the opponent off.
In Krav Maga (which I have tried) I didn't find the "finishing off", same applies to my perception of wing-tsun etc. But this is a very personal subject, like the selection of your personal handgun. A matter of tase basically. Pick what works for you. And don't accept any reply like "thats a foul" or "we don't do that" by your instructor or buddy...that just means I lost control...
...for ,ore info check out www.atk.at or http://www.b-a-e.de/index.php/content/blogcategory/0/190/
after some 10 years of Tae-Kwon-Do, some Kickboxing and Judo I chose ATK. It's a radical, mostly no-nonsense and no-competition system that offers a solution and finishes the opponent off.
In Krav Maga (which I have tried) I didn't find the "finishing off", same applies to my perception of wing-tsun etc. But this is a very personal subject, like the selection of your personal handgun. A matter of tase basically. Pick what works for you. And don't accept any reply like "thats a foul" or "we don't do that" by your instructor or buddy...that just means I lost control...
Blind Tree:
I think what it really boils down to is that the Asian martial arts may have come from India via Bodhidharma but from what I understand, it was the Shaolin Temple that was credited w/ the documentation and research w/ the information that was given to them.
Bodhidharma DID NOT teach the Chinese monks martial arts. What he did teach was breathin excercises and "Chi" related stuff because he saw that the monks were weak and feeble from no exercise and sitting and praying all the time. It took years of study and experimentation before a systemized from of martial art came out of China.
As the arts spread throughout Asia, you can see how it has adapted to the terrain and social situations at the time.
I may be wrong but I firmly believe that all of the Asian martial arts were derived from a Chinese system at one point or another or to better word it, all of the Asian martial arts has components of Chinese Kung Fu.
When you look at it frpm a literal standpoint:
Kung Fu = long time, hard work, good skill
Karate = Empty hands
Putting it this way, there is no superior system. I am biased w/ Tai Chi. This is what works for me and I have not found many systems that can defeat it. Of course when you put it into the context of competition sports then Tai Chi is at the bottom of the list for effectiveness.
I think what it really boils down to is that the Asian martial arts may have come from India via Bodhidharma but from what I understand, it was the Shaolin Temple that was credited w/ the documentation and research w/ the information that was given to them.
Bodhidharma DID NOT teach the Chinese monks martial arts. What he did teach was breathin excercises and "Chi" related stuff because he saw that the monks were weak and feeble from no exercise and sitting and praying all the time. It took years of study and experimentation before a systemized from of martial art came out of China.
As the arts spread throughout Asia, you can see how it has adapted to the terrain and social situations at the time.
I may be wrong but I firmly believe that all of the Asian martial arts were derived from a Chinese system at one point or another or to better word it, all of the Asian martial arts has components of Chinese Kung Fu.
When you look at it frpm a literal standpoint:
Kung Fu = long time, hard work, good skill
Karate = Empty hands
Putting it this way, there is no superior system. I am biased w/ Tai Chi. This is what works for me and I have not found many systems that can defeat it. Of course when you put it into the context of competition sports then Tai Chi is at the bottom of the list for effectiveness.
Blind Tree Frog
New member
Exactly, which is why I don't particularily care for when people say that such and such an art originated in India. India had it's styles that may of influenced other asian arts, but for the most part, they figured out styles on their own.
I recommend keeping things simple, practical, and effective. Everything else distracts from the goal. The goal is surviving an unarmed encounter. That's the necessary mindset. Good luck finding competent training which meets those criteria. It is extremely difficult based on location, availabilty, and being able to recognizing that which is from that which is not.
Danger Dave
New member
BTW, the Japanese Judo guy that beat Helio Gracie was named Kimura. Kimura was a monster on the mat - honestly without parallel in his day & age. To honor him, the armlock he used on Helio is called the "Kimura" in BJJ. Don't know about the fights at parties, that's a new one to me, but fights don't seem to be a rarity in Brazil. Now, dojo crashing, the Gracies definitely did that, but that's not without precedent in the martial arts. My TKD instructor told me it was kind of a rite of passage in the US when he started teaching in the late 60's - you'd better be able to fight if you were going to open a school, because you would be tested by the local instructors.
Also, I would rather train with a school with at least some emphasis on sport/competition, although not necessarily it's main focus - In 20+ years of martial arts, I've seen wayyy too much "my technique is too deadly for competition" BS. The translation is usually "we really don't have any idea what we're doing, and we'll lose if we fight". If it's too dangerous to use, then how the heck do you know 1) if it ever works or worked; and 2) you -personally- can use it when you need to?
BTW, my experience - over 20 yrs in TKD/Hapkido & a handfull of months in BJJ. I love them both, but I wish I had started BJJ when I was still in my 20's.
To add a comment about Oyama Karate - the Oyama karate you see around occasionally is a derivative of Mas Oyama's Kyoshinkai, but it's a different Oyama (no blood relation to Mas Oyama, iirc) and a different style/school - not part of Kyokushinkai. That being said, I've seen some Oyama Karate guys in tournaments, and they've got legit skills.
Also, I would rather train with a school with at least some emphasis on sport/competition, although not necessarily it's main focus - In 20+ years of martial arts, I've seen wayyy too much "my technique is too deadly for competition" BS. The translation is usually "we really don't have any idea what we're doing, and we'll lose if we fight". If it's too dangerous to use, then how the heck do you know 1) if it ever works or worked; and 2) you -personally- can use it when you need to?
BTW, my experience - over 20 yrs in TKD/Hapkido & a handfull of months in BJJ. I love them both, but I wish I had started BJJ when I was still in my 20's.
To add a comment about Oyama Karate - the Oyama karate you see around occasionally is a derivative of Mas Oyama's Kyoshinkai, but it's a different Oyama (no blood relation to Mas Oyama, iirc) and a different style/school - not part of Kyokushinkai. That being said, I've seen some Oyama Karate guys in tournaments, and they've got legit skills.
I've seen wayyy too much "my technique is too deadly for competition" BS. The translation is usually "we really don't have any idea what we're doing, and we'll lose if we fight".
Man, I know what you're saying. I don't know how many dojos/schools I walked out of when I heard that....
I felt like telling them, "If your style is so deadly - prove it. Let's suit up with padding, mask, groin guards, whatever. Then I'll let you wail on me. Last one standing has the superior skills."
Or better yet: "I'll let you poke me in the throat with your "Death Touch" if you can get through my barrage of fists, feet, knees and elbows (for starters)."
#*$! posers....
If the techniques taught are not "sportsmanlike" enough for competition, at least they should have the protective gear for man-to-man sparring. Spending an entire class flailing your hands in the air (or even on a bag) is not realistic training for a real-life confrontation.