Gun Show Loop Hole

2

22-rimfire

New member
Wanted to get a feel concerning your attitudes about the "gunshow loop hole". As you know, the gunshow loop hole is for the most part being able to buy a gun without filling out the federal form and getting the background check from individual sellers or "individual" dealers... the ones without an FFL.

Personally, I think too much is made of this. But some states now require that all handgun sales go through a FFL with the backgound check. And I personally don't want the extra time and cost involved with an individual to individual sale. What is your take on this??
 
Promoting misinformation

"As you know, the gunshow loop hole is for the most part being able to buy a gun without filling out the federal form and getting the background check from individual sellers or "individual" dealers... the ones without an FFL."

Where are you getting your [mis]information; the VPC?

There is no "gunshow loop hole." Period.

If the sale is INTRAstate, state law applies. In full. Just as it would for any other in-state, personal transfer. No exceptions.

If it is INTERstate, all FEDERAL laws apply. Period. No exceptions.


".....'individual" dealers'.. the ones without an FFL."

Your fabricated term "individual dealers" is an oxymoron. If the transaction involves a dealer's stock, it's an FFL transfer. If it involves a private person, acting in their private capacity, it is a private transfer. This mythical class of "individual dealers...without an FFL" exists only in the mind of the anti-gunners and is used to feed the media frenzy about your disingenous "loophole. :mad:
 
What "loophole"??

A private individual goes to a gun show and sells his privately owned firearm to another person. The same person places an ad in the newspaper and sells another gun to another person. Difference?

or "individual" dealers... the ones without an FFL.
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Anyone "dealing" without an FFL is violating federal law. No loophole there.
 
Number6: What I said to the best of my knowledge is absolutely correct. I have been at this a long time. Current law does limit the private sales between individuals across state lines. The age requirement and residency limits sales within the in-state individual transactions. No, you can not sell a gun to a criminal knowingly or to anyone that would be required to answer "yes" to the questions in Federal Form 4473 (other than "Is the purchase for your own use?" or something to that effect).

You tell me where I have mis-interpreted something? :)

The "loop hole" is as I stated it in anti-gun circles.
 
Just another thought since people don't like the term "loop hole". I grew up in Pennsylvania, and in PA a private individual can not legally sell a handgun without the purchase being run through a FFL (and hence the Form 4473 is completed and the background check is performed). This requires the FFL holder to document the sale in his books (I assume). The FFL holder normally has a fee for this service (as he should) since he is in business to make a profit and not just to facilitate private sales between individuals. I believe there are 17 states that require the background check on private sales.

Before you paint me as an anti-gunner on this web site, I will tell you that I am an avid collector and do NOT like the requirement in PA or any other state for private transactions.

If I set up a table at a gun show and sell my private collection, I don't consider myself a dealer. The "Anti's" consider you a "dealer". Also, selling my personal collection is for profit.
 
Number 6 explained it very well. Firearms are sold in gunshows EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as they are sold elsewhere. No laws are suspended or ignored in gun shows. There is no loophole. The fed.gov has their fingers in the firearm sale process deep enough without having pro-gun people perpetuate mythical terminology which presents itself as a request for more intrusion.

22-rimfire said:
As you know, the gunshow loop hole is for the most part being able to buy a gun without filling out the federal form and getting the background check from individual sellers or "individual" dealers... the ones without an FFL.
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There is no such thing as an "individual" dealer either. As a matter of fact, it is a contradiction in terms. One is either a dealer with an FFL, or one is an individual who neither has nor needs a license.

In Ohio, I can sell a firearm to my neighbor without the government's permission. This is as it should be. I can also sell a firearm to someone who lives on the other side of the state. It is none of the fed.gov's business as to what two law-abiding citizens decide to sell or trade within a sovereign state - be it a firearm or a toaster. Whether this transaction happens in a gun show, a toaster show, alongside the road or in my garage, makes no difference to the federal government.

22-rimfire said:
But some states now require that all handgun sales go through a FFL with the backgound check.
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These states are joining the fed.gov in the infringement of God-given, or natural, rights by doing this. If they are in the position of granting permission, they can as easily deny it for reasons that they determine.

22-rimfire said:
I personally don't want the extra time and cost involved with an individual to individual sale. What is your take on this??
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I have the exact opposite take on this. I have never filled out a 4473 and don't plan to anytime in the future. I invest the time to seek out and gladly pay more money for private sales. It is another way I exercise my rights. As Thomas Paine said, "Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." Paying an extra $25 for a pistol ain't much fatigue as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for bringing up this subject, 22-rimfire. I think many will learn from the responses. :)

-Dave
 
In case you STILL haven't grasped it...

"What I said to the best of my knowledge is absolutely correct."

The mere fact that it is "to the best of [your] knowledge" does NOT make it "absolutely correct," whatever your delusions. There is NO "gun show loop hole" because NO laws are suspended merely because the sale occurs at a gun show. Grasp the concept!

"I have been at this a long time."

And yet you still don't "get it".....

"Current law does limit the private sales between individuals across state lines. The age requirement and residency limits sales within the in-state individual transactions. No, you can not sell a gun to a criminal knowingly or to anyone that would be required to answer "yes" to the questions in Federal Form 4473 (other than "Is the purchase for your own use?" or something to that effect)."

Thus proving that there is NO "gun show loop hole." So just what IS your point/problem/purpose?

"You tell me where I have mis-interpreted something."

We have. Several times, in several ways. WE don't have the "mis-interpreted" problem. You obviously do. :rolleyes:
 
Number6: I have NO delusions. That is the problem. So, use of the term "gunshow loop hole" does capture people's attention. My point is that this is a topic that I have not seen addressed of late. But, I have not performed a thorough search of this web site prior to posting the thread. My purpose was to hear other people's ideas on the subject not to get criticised for terminology.

You simply pick at my terminology. But, you understand percisely what I am talking about whether I use the term "individual" dealer or private transaction and so forth. This appears to be sacred ground to you and hence not subject to discussion.

The Hillary approach... if you don't like what someone said.... "Attack the messenger." I prefer to discuss substance. Number6, if I look hard, there is some substance to what you say as is there to what I say.

As you said, "There is no loop hole." I agree with that based on the laws in my state. I like Bluesman's analogy about selling a toaster. I agree with that as well. But in PA, that anology does not work if it is a handgun. Fortunately, it still does in most states.

I also didn't start this thread so I could sound off or argue about semantics concerning a subject that is near and dear to me. I hate the personal transation requirements in some states. (I reference PA, because I am familiar with it.)

I have posed this question to people in PA and their response is something to the effect that I want to sell guns to a criminal or something. The legal transfer of a handgun even to a neighbor or friend is illegal without a background check. Many there seem to have no problem with their own state requirements. I do. But, I would never knowing trade or otherwise facilitate a transaction with any person who is not "worthy" of ownership. So, they say... what's the problem? The problem is more govenment intrusion.
 
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By any means possible

The "loophole" is that we can go to a gun show and buy a gun - period. The antigun bigots want to stop the sale/transfer of guns by any and all means, including:

Outlaw gun shows
Outlaw private sale of guns
Outlaw gifting of guns
Outlaw inheriting of guns
Outlaw 50 cal. "assault weapons"
Outlaw all "assault weapons"
Outlaw all handguns
Outlaw possession of any gun within 1000 feet of a school
Outlaw possession of gun powder in bulk quantities
Outlaw possession of magazines that hold more than "____" rounds
Outlaw possession of primers in bulk quantities
Outlaw possession of "intremediate caliber sniper weapons"

In other words, infringe our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE.

That is the goal and strategy of the antigun bigots. They have said so themselves. Accomplishing ANY of the above is a "win" for the antigun bigots and another wound inflicted upon our freedom in their "death by a thousand cuts" strategy.
 
Well ... there is no "gun show" loophole that is only for gun shows, as has been said; the sale of guns at a gun show are covered by the same laws as elsewhere.

But there is a "loophole" (as in a way to avoid) to always having to buy a gun through an FFL in many states (like colorado), by simply being a private seller. In the past at gun shows I've seen private dealer tables set up with quite a few guns, but recently it seems like all the booths were FFL and the only private sellers were people carrying around a single gun or 2 with a sign letting people know they're for sale. This they can do anywhere.

I think a private citizen should be able to sell his property to another private citizen without having to pay an FFL. I can also "gift" a gun to anyone I want of any age and that's legal as well, and I like both of those abilities.

But ... for those who think that every gun transfer should have the form filled out there is a way around it. I don't want to see this changed, but there are those who do and if that's the only gun control legislation they can manage to pass ... I can live with that.

Of course, it is funny how they get their statistics. With a press release a year or two ago from some state congressman they said that "40% of the booths" at a local gun show were non FFL gun dealers.

Well ... 40% of the tables may not have had an FFL, but it's because they weren't selling guns. Included in those statistics was the hot dog stand, the political groups, the knife salesman, etc.
 
"Also, selling my personal collection is for profit."

I don't think the sale of your collection is "for profit" as the phrase is typically used. You might make some money, or a lot of money, but you aren't in the business of selling guns to make a profit. Do you have a business license? Do you file your taxes as a business?

Selling the couple of boxes of old stamps my mother gave me doesn't make me a stamp dealer and the proceeds aren't what I'd call profits.

John
 
No, I have no business license, or IRS reporting as in a business. Truthfully, I have never had a table at a show although at one time I entertained the idea of having a display table. I have carried guns into shows just like many others and sometimes I have either traded them or sold them. Last one was a 6" Python. That money was "re-invested" at the same show.

And, yes, I was referring to private sellers. As far as I know, it is perfectly legal in my state.

As an aside, my older brother yesterday asked me if I thought the 50 cal sniper rifles should be legal... I said, you know the answer to that... heck yes! I have not been following that side of the anti's closely. I guess they want to ban the 500 S&W too for the same reason. My brother is not in favor of much gun control (he says), but he believes that the requirement in PA is a good law because it could stop a criminal or terrorist from getting a firearm. I say that is bunk. He lives in PA. He also owns no handguns or any of the so-called assult rifles. He also voted for Carey. That explains it all as he believed the bit about Carey not wanting to restrict ownership of guns used for hunting. What about the other ones?

Personally, I draw the line at explosive projectiles as it has been drawn a long time ago for civilian ownership.

I would love to hear from some PA residents on this thread???
 
I could go on about the "gun show loophole" or about "individual dealers" or "private dealers" for some length. But others before me have already covered those aspects. And quite well, I might add.

What I will discuss is the use of terminology that was coined by the anti-gun groups. In simplest terms, control the language and you control the debate.

When we, as a group, begin to use the terms of the opposition, then we have already lost the debate.

Consider, how many here used the term, "high capacity magazine?" I could go back and check the threads, but near as I can tell, many, many gunnies began using that term to describe what was at one time, and is again today, normal capacity.

There is no gun show loophole. What there is, are state laws that allow for the individual or private transfer of handguns and rifles. There is no individual or private dealer. Dealers in firearms must hold a Federal Firearms License, in order to conduct their business. Individuals are not conducting business, therefore they are not dealers.

This, 22-rimfire, is what I believe most here are getting on about, even if they haven't been able to pin it down. We must not allow the other side to dominate the debate by setting the language. Refuse their terms outright!
 
Antipitas: That was a good response. I was looking over my most recent comment and the term "sniper" rifle sticks out.... again that is terminology of the anti-gun movement and not the other side. I didn't say that they were for sillouette shooting or long range target shooting. Obviously, the term sniper rifle suggests something that I didn't intend. I will take this into consideration the next time I have a "debate" on the subject.

I would still love to hear from folks from the states that require the FFL for personal sales. That was really the whole reason for posting in the first place. :)

Excuse me for living. :)
 
Saying that private sales take on a different legal aspect at a gunshow is not "closing a loophole". It is actually an unconstitutional infringement of our right to free assembly. If an assembly of citizens must obey more restrictive laws just because they are in a group, then the assembly has lost some of the freedom the individuals used to possess.
 
Grand Illusion: I was checking state requirements at the NRA web site. Discovered why you are only seeing FFL dealers at gun shows in your state. Apparently, all handgun transactions at gun shows have to go through an instant background check and a FFL in Colorado shows. They refer to them as "vendors" rather than dealers which avoids the language about dealers, private sales, selling of personal collection, etc. Hence, that is why you only see FFL dealers at shows there now. The language specifically references sales AT a gunshow. Wonder if outside the building is "AT"? Probably.
 
IMHO: the use of "Loop Hole" already takes a position. Not unlike "Pro-Abortion" or "Anti-Choice".

Referring to it as a "loop hole" already buys into the arguement that it IS a loophole.
 
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