Gun Shot IN The Air Kills 7 Year Old July 4th

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Just a thought -- could this be a reason why pointing a gun up should not be considered safe? When we took our first steps class we had to pass a pistol around the room with the barrel in a safe direction and the correct answer was up as otherwise you would sweep yourself or others. I have also been handed guns at the range and been told to keep the muzzle up rather than down
 
One of the dumbest things I ever did as a kid was shoot an arrow straight up into the air.

Yep. I did that. A very stupid thing to do. I can still see the arrow going up. Scared the stuffing out of me and I have never done it again. That makes at least two of us who survived a stupid youthful mistake.
 
There was a somewhat similar case in Pennsylvania a year or two ago. An Amish girl riding in her family's buggy was killed by a bullet from the sky. It was eventually determined that the shot was fired by a man about a mile away who had been hunting with a black powder rifle (IIRC). When he returned home, his preferred mode of unloading said rifle was to point it at the sky and pull the trigger.

Like I said above... It happened in OHIO

Teens Death Ruled a Homicide
 
Just noticed weblance's post a couple before mine. Could be the same incident. I know the girl was Amish so I made the mistake of assuming it must have been in Pennsylvania. I forgot there's a significant Amish community in Ohio, as well.

Wherever it was, the bullet traveled a mile, came down THROUGH THE ROOF OF AN AMISH BUGGY, and still had enough energy to kill.
 
I am not into the blame game but one answer comes to mind.......Television.

I don't know why you would blame television. It is a practice that has been around since at least since the 1830s here in the US (Texicans firing in the air in celebration over Mexico) and no doubt predates that considerably. You can find examples from the Civil War, WWI, WWII, etc. It is done in parts of the world without television. No, television isn't the problem here.
 
SgtLumpy mentioned shot tracing technology.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...y-fourth-of-july-celebrations-with-audio-tech

Can pinpoint the shot to a 25 meter circle, close enough to get an address.

I used to live in a not so great area of Atlanta, and on the 4th of july the neighborhood sounded like a war zone. I am not talking about a few random shots, I am talking about hundreds of shots fired. Some were close, some were far, but I am pretty sure most of them were aimed at the sky and all of them had to land somewhere. It was nights like that made me happy I lived in a brick house.
 
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I have been in Central American cities during holidays where people start shooting in the air. People just walk out into the street and empty a mag at the sky.

One night on feliz navidad at midnight I just heard constant rounds along with non stop fireworks as the noise started to die down I could hear objects raining down and hitting the roof, it was just tin on rafters so we climbed under the bed.
 
This really is a sad situation. I just did an interview yesterday with the local news channel about it.

I really hope the guilty party steps forward.
 
I think that to dismiss the danger of falling objects is a mistake. In vietnam we dropped what we called lawn darts. They were I think mark 44's loaded with little metal bulet shaped bombs, no explosives, about 1 1/2 to 2 inches long, about 1/2 inch diameter. They were devistating to ground personel. Navy fighters would drop them on suspected vietcong hiding in the jungle. They would go through a army helmet and kill the guy wearing it.
 
Its sad this happened and very unfortunate..statistics say most bullets fired straight up lose so much velocity on the way down they are no longer deadly..this is a very sad and unfortunate event and this gives resposible gun owners a bad name...i shot my gun on the 4th also but i shot at a target..

As the rule says always know your target and whats behind it..a shot in the air while most of the time is harmless is still breaking that rule and can result in these sort of horrible things..always know your target.
 
wet posted
I think that to dismiss the danger of falling objects is a mistake. In vietnam we dropped what we called lawn darts. They were I think mark 44's loaded with little metal bulet shaped bombs, no explosives, about 1 1/2 to 2 inches long, about 1/2 inch diameter. They were devistating to ground personel. Navy fighters would drop them on suspected vietcong hiding in the jungle. They would go through a army helmet and kill the guy wearing it.
I'm definitely not dismissing the danger; shooting in the air is a terribly dangerous thing to do. However, a bullet dropped out of a plane or shot straight up in the air will not come down with enough force to kill someone under normal circumstances.

Those "lawn darts" that were dropped in Vietnam were specifically designed to stay straight and reach a much higher terminal velocity than a bullet alone could ever reach.

What makes firing a bullet into the air so dangerous is that it's easy to fire it at enough of an angle that the bullet still maintains some of its initial velocity and rotation so that it still has enough power to kill on the way back down to earth.
 
However, a bullet dropped out of a plane or shot straight up in the air will not come down with enough force to kill someone under normal circumstances.
As with many topics along these lines the problem is that it's not as simple as most people believe.

A bullet dropped out of a plane duplicates one of the three potential scenarios that need to be considered. I agree that a bullet dropped out of a plane is fairly unlikely to have lethal potential, but even if we consider only the case where a bullet is fired perfectly straight upward, there are still two scenarios which differ significantly in lethal potential.

Scenario 1. The bullet is fired upwards but at some angle from vertical--it doesn't really take much of an angle off true vertical for this scenario to work. In this case the bullet will come down nose first with some retained muzzle velocity as well as velocity imparted by gravity. The total velocity is significant and bullets that fall into this scenario definitely have lethal potential.

Scenario 2. The bullet is fired straight, or nearly straight upwards and comes almost straight back down. In this case the bullet achieves terminal velocity but retains no significant muzzle velocity. There are two possibilities for this scenario.

Scenario 2A. The bullet remains spin stabilized and falls base first. This has been demonstrated by Hatcher's experimentation to happen with some rifle bullets. In this case, terminal velocity can be in the 300-400fps range because the spin-stabilized bullet falling base first is relatively aerodynamic. Impact energy is in the 30ftlb range which did not impress Hatcher much, but is well above the typical pellet gun energy levels. Sadly there are news stories that prove on a fairly regular basis that even the typically anemic pellet gun can be lethal to humans.

Scenario 2B. The bullet destabilizes and tumbles as it falls back to earth. This has been demonstrated by Hatcher to occur with some rifle bullets and by Mythbusters to occur with the pistol bullets they tested. Mythbusters was never able to recover any rifle bullets and did not test anything other than straight up shots so they provided absolutely no information on scenarios 1 or 2A. In this case, terminal velocity is around 150fps. I would not like to be hit by a tumbling bullet at 150fps, and I suppose it has some small potential to be lethal but it's not terribly likely to kill someone or even cause a significant injury.

It's not possible to tell without testing which scenario will be created with a "sky shot". It might be scenario 1 with guaranteed lethal potential, scenario 2A with a high likelihood of lethality or 2B which is fairly unlikely to be lethal. The only responsible answer is that one should never shoot a firearm upwards unless they can guarantee that the impact area is totally free of personnel.
Wasn't it VP Biden that told people to fire two shots in the air?
Shotguns using birdshot are very different from centerfire rifles and pistols. While a rifle or pistol bullet has the potential to travel for a mile or more and still retain some lethality, birdshot is generally considered to be safe after it has traveled only some 400 yards downrange. Similarly, birdshot is such an inefficient projectile it has a very low terminal velocity and can not cause injury as it falls--although I wouldn't want to catch a falling pellet in the eye.

Conventional pellet guns with conventional pellets have a range similar to shotguns using birdshot and are generally considered safe with only a few hundred yards of safety area downrange.
 
Just for comparison, 350 fps, from John's data above, is roughly equivalent to 250 MPH if my calculator is correct. I would have to imagine that a 100-200 gr projectile hurling at me at 250 MPH has a great deal of destructive energy available, no matter how it's shaped. And I don't think it would matter much where it hit. Skull, shoulder, arm, eyeball, it could all be devistating.


Sgt Lumpy
 
I was a general contractor years ago, building large warehouses and manufacturing facilities. We built a 100,000+ sf building not far from an established neighborhood with what was then a new roof, PVC over a slip sheet and 1/2" 5 ply plywood.

Close to the end of the 1 year warranty on the building the owner complained of roof leaks and upon inspection over two dozen bullets were found to have penetrated the roofing. Most of these were handgun bullets... .25, .38 and .45 lead and jacketed with a couple of .22. All of these were embedded in the plywood but not thru it.

We had two holes that were thru the plywood with no bullet found. We speculated at the time it way have been rifle bullets as the holes measured close to .30 cal.

This was back in the 1980s but surprised me as to the amount of bullets we found in that one year of use and the fact that ~ 10% of the bullets had enough energy to put a hole thru the PVC roof, the slip sheet and 1/2" of plywood.

I remember as a kid out on our rural property shooting shot shells for 4th of July but I also remember not doing it with a pistol or rifle as I was taught that even a .22 could go 1 1/2 mile as that caution was printed on the box, if I remember correctly.

Simple as that... don't shoot in the air!
 
We had two holes that were thru the plywood with no bullet found. We speculated at the time it way have been rifle bullets as the holes measured close to .30 cal.

Imagine opening your box of Cap'n Crunch or Cheerios (stored in that warehouse) and finding a jacketed boat tail.


Sgt Lumpy
 
Mythbusters was never able to recover any rifle bullets and did not test anything other than straight up shots so they provided absolutely no information on scenarios 1 or 2A. In this case, terminal velocity is around 150fps. I would not like to be hit by a tumbling bullet at 150fps, and I suppose it has some small potential to be lethal but it's not terribly likely to kill someone or even cause a significant injury.
True, but the problem as I see it, is that most people are selfish and won't ever fire a gun straight up, as they don't want the bullet coming back on them, no matter what velocity has been stripped from it. They obviously don't even care about other people, let alone want to spend any brain power trying to calculate a ballistic arc. And like you, I would not care to be hit even by a spent bullet that is simply falling. To me this is NEVER a good thing, and I know several people that have done it. All have been told; only one has seen the light and stopped.
 
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