Gun safety psa!!!

I may not fully agree with hogdogs' terminology, nor his personal design standards; but, I concur with his general observation that birdshot is often underestimated. Hanging the messenger doesn't change the message.

About accuracy, just to set the record straight:
There's no way a load of birdshot is going through a real interior wall.
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I don't know about the building standards recognized by others; but, throughout the US, gypsum board (gyp bd) sheathed stud walls and partitions are considered real.
an exterior wall with a robust exterior veneer like brick or thick stucco.
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I never thought of veneer as robust, but I suppose it is when compared to vinyl or aluminum siding. Stucco isn't too bad if it's the real thing and not just a superficial scratch coat for looks.
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Veneer comes in two types; anchored and adhered. They can range from thin water resistive or decorative wainscoting to massive full coverage stone panels. Yes, there are veneers that will significantly factor into the ballistic equation. The use of a plaster scratch coat as a veneer is unusual. Typically in veneer plaster (synthetic stucco), a proprietary finish coat is applied directly to structural or insulating wall panels. Closed cell panels have been used with some success. Systems incorporating exterior gyp panels have been subjects of litigation.
Walls pretty much everywhere in the US made with drywall is 1/2 inch. The only time you use 5/8 inch is in commercial buildings and the wall on your garage to house, cause it is considered a firewall. Code is 1/2 inch otherwise.
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Not necessarily... In addition to being used in fire resistive assemblies, 5/8-inch thick gyp bd is often used when truer surfaces are desired, like in ceilings with 24-inch truss (or ceiling joist) spacing. And, also for their structural, thermal and/or acoustic properties. Not all 5/8-inch gyp bd is approved for fire rated assemblies, but you won't find it at your home center. If you've hung standard 1/2-inch gyp bd and 5/8 fire code gyp bd, you've probably noted the reinforcing fibers added to the fire code variety. If your experiences are limited to single family dwellings (SFD), then you may be unaware of the requirements for fire resistive construction well beyond the typical dwelling/garage common wall. When it comes to building codes, SFD's have the fewest restrictions.
My exterior walls are 14 inches of solid brick from the basement floor to above the roof line - no wood, no cinderblocks, no insulation.
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and, I'm guessing, no integral reinforcing steel, no significant lateral resistance. Also, a 14-inch brick wall is seldom solid, they are typically constructed in two wythes with a cavity between. Starting in the early 1800's, masonry cavity walls have been used for protection against moisture penetration. A 6-inch cavity is typical in a 14-inch brick wall.
 
In the vein of the original post – gun safety, don’t get too complacent with any loads – I’d like to add a couple of things. Two loads that are presumed “safe” are Blanks and the so-called “Less Than Lethal” loads. I’ve put together a lot of both types – Blanks for myself, “Stingers” on request of others. At close range, either load can kill or severely wound a person. The Stingers were dangerous enough at 20 feet that I quit making them.

DC
 
M&P45:

Had that been 00 buck, it'd been your funeral. Glad you lived.

That said, 6 feet? The fact that you are alive is pretty damning for the pro birdshot argument.
 
What!

at 20 yards i was having 7.5 shot get stuck in the face of my backstop (an old wooden spool) i could pick them out with my fingernail...i'll stick to buckshot in my bedroom gun and leave the birdshot for the birds
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If you shoot someone 20 yards away, you better have a very understanding DA.
 
What!
at 20 yards i was having 7.5 shot get stuck in the face of my backstop (an old wooden spool) i could pick them out with my fingernail...i'll stick to buckshot in my bedroom gun and leave the birdshot for the birds
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If you shoot someone 20 yards away, you better have a very understanding DA.
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(and a huge bedroom.)
Yes, a point well taken.
 
If you gentlemen won't listen to 30 years of LE experience, Then you have already made up your minds and additional information will only confuse you. I have been there, done that, and helped pick up the pieces. I repeat that I have not in all my years as a detective known a shotgun blast to fail to change a bad guys mind, usually with fatal results.

An understanding DA is very much needed when assault type weapons are utilized to stop a home invasion. Some of you may say that so long as the weapon prevails, it should not matter what is used. Point taken. However, prosecutors don't take well to guns outfitted for combat that has been a part of a protection defense. Juries don't like them, either. I seriously hope that you have good homeowner's insurance if you use a tactical equipped shotgun. The civil suit and the criminal defense will bankrupt you. You will be alive, but will life be worth living broke?

Folks, I'm not kidding. For HD, use your favorite hunting piece with the ammo that you normally hunt with and you will be much safer from prosecution when the DA reviews the case. If you are an uplands hunter, have #6 or 7.5s in the magazine. If you are a clays shooter, have 8s or 9s in the pipe of your favorite shooter. A specialty gun equipped for combat with gadgets all over it loaded with combat loads will almost assure you at the very least a civil action, or at worst a criminal prosecution.

You may take this at face value or I have wasted my time typing this post. I don't like to see people get into trouble because they are stubborn about their beliefs. Remember, I have been through many reviews with the DA. He can ruin your life with the stroke of a pen. I always recommend that there be no prosecution for a burglary or home invasion. That carries some weight but the DA, when he sees the photos of a loaded with buckshot pump gun owned by a quail hunter, lots of visions cross his mind. Visions of glory at issuing a warrant for involuntary manslaughter.

The shotgun blast may not kill your bad guy, but it will put instant brakes on even a drug crazed perp with a heavy coat on. A shotgun blast to a guy with a bullet proof Kevlar vest will knock the breath out of him and leave bruises that you wouldn't want to believe. The Kevlar factory is about 20 miles from my home and they have excellent testing facilities. A shotgun blast at 30 feet is effective with any size shot. No, the shot won't penetrate but it leaves some very nasty bruises. I've read many posts that complain that the perp may be wearing a heavy coat, thus the need for buckshot. Not to worry. Any shotgun blast will change his plans. A shotgun expends its energy on the outside while a rifle projectile expends it's energy inside the body. If a bad guys comes acalling, I don't want to kill him. I just want to protect my home. I'd rather visit him at the ER or the courtroom than to go to his funeral.

Gebtlemen, I am a retired cop that has seen lots of lives ruined by the judicial system in both civil and criminal actions though the homeowner thought he was acting properly. The Castle Doctrine does not protect you if you act outside the confines of reasonableness. That is why I suggest that you have the gun that you use in your normal shooting routines loaded with the ammo you use for that routine. It will save your life if a bad guy visits and a lot of grief when the prosecutor makes a decision on whether to have you arrested.

Not all of you, maybe none of you, will agree me. I have taken the time to clear my conscience as I feel the need to share this with you. You are my friends and I think you will understand my post if you analyze it. It contains my life's experience in this type of "castle doctine" protection. Just because your state has some measure of protection for you, the end decision is up to the DA, plus the civil attorneys that circle when they smell a dollar. Though you may be entirely innocent of wrongdoing, you are not home free at all.

My little 20 gauge that I use on the farm is beside my bed loaded with what I use on the farm, usually #6s. If I should be so unfortunate as to have uninvited guests, I am comfortable with this load and my case will receive very little notice from either the DA or my homeowner's insurance company.

Thanks for your time.
 
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Without re-hashing 6 pages of the previously mentioned closed thread... I think what Brent is getting at is: Regardless of what shells you put in your HD shotgun, be prepared for the worst if you fire without significant backstop should you fail to hit your target. While birdshot has less energy than buckshot has less energy than 9mm has less energy than .357 magnum, they all have plenty of energy to kill someone on the other side of a couple slabs of drywall.

Rule #4: Be sure of your target and what is behind/beyond it. Even if you're only shooting (insert theoretical 'underpowered' round here).

Saying that birdshot is "safe" to just shoot off in an apartment is like saying it is "safe" to shoot small calibers like .22, .25 and .32 without appropriate backstop because "they're too underpowered to kill a person anyway". Lots of people have been killed by Raven .25 Saturday Night Specials...
 
Ian is spot on!
That is all I meant. And since I use my all black 20 year old 500 to hunt, I have it loaded with the #3 buck which is the biggest I find at walmart. I have a half dozen slugs if needed. I also have a loaded (not in the pipe just the tube) .30-30 on the closet rack too...
My thread was not started for any sort of judicial defense of a SD/HD shoot. Just a public rant regarding the endless "sage":rolleyes: advise folks spew forth regarding the safe aspect of bird shot in an apartment or small home.
On the judicial end of the spectrum, if you never hunt at all, a shotgun shouldn't be your choice of HD firearm? I never heard that before.
Brent
 
Serious Question

RETIRED LAWMAN said

For HD, use your favorite hunting piece with the ammo that you normally hunt with
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Are you saying that if I used my extra full choked Turkey Gun with #5 Nitro Turkey and it wasn't Turkey Season that the D.A. would look on this unfavorably? :confused: Or am I reading too much into your advice?
 
I can't answer that question. It is up to the investigating officer and the prosecutor to review the case and determine if charges will be brought. It has been my experience that citizens that use the shotgun that they hunt with and the ammo that is usually used by the shooter, that charges are normally not brought. However, civil damages are almost always sought and a civil jury looks more favorably on a hunting gun with the type ammo that the hunter usually has on hand. For example, a deer hunter will usually have some buckshot in the house, whereas a quail hunter that does not hunt big game would not have the need for buckshot. A person that hunts geese would have large shot and a clays shooter would have smaller shot.

A citizen that does not hunt would probably have a gun of sorts, but not a fully equipped tactical gun. A prosecutor might see "set-up" in such a case. Certainly, a civil attorney would grin from ear to ear upon seeing photos of such a rig. A jury, being the final trier of fact, is who you have to prove the matter to. They will want to know if there has ever been any contact between the shooter and perp and under what circumstances. When they look at the shotgun and see a hunting gun that was loaded with the hunter's choice for his game, they are more favorably impressed than to be shown a gun that was equipped only to kill humans. A tactical gun with a short barrel and wide open choke loaded down with expensive sights, flashlights, lasers, heat shields, etc., does not make a good impression on a prosecutor or a civil jury. It is almost worthless for anything else but inflicting damage onto humans.

Use what you want to. I have no "per se" advice to give. Just 30+ years of experience picking up the pieces and seeing good and otherwise decent people getting ruined by the system. I try to play it safe and even then, should I have to defend myself or my property, I will be involved with the system far longer than I want to be. It is no simple matter and we need to think about the consequences before we select a dedicated shotgun and load for home defense purposes. With attorney fees exceeding $300 per hours, think ahead so that the time you have to spend with the legal system is minimized. Even if you do it by the book, you are still in for a rude awakening.

In the meantime, I'll keep my 20 gauge Nova at my bedside loaded with #6s. I have no fear that it will keep me safe from intruders and from the legal system. I've worked too hard to see it all go away in legal fees and civil damages. Lawyers will take any kind of case now, even those that they know that have no merit. The homeowner's insurance companies had rather settle than go before a jury. Even with my assurance that my Nova will keep me safe from harm, it won't stop the lawyers from trying to ruin me. I am a step ahead with my set-up if the bad guy's family smells money.
 
20 Gauge Loaded with #6s......that would be my Ithaca Grouse gun with an Imp. Cyl. choke. I live in a mighty rural section. The response time could be a while. With all due respect I would like to be alive to spend some of that $$$ that I am not wasting on litigation.
 
"and, I'm guessing, no integral reinforcing steel, no significant lateral resistance. Also, a 14-inch brick wall is seldom solid, they are typically constructed in two wythes with a cavity between. Starting in the early 1800's, masonry cavity walls have been used for protection against moisture penetration. A 6-inch cavity is typical in a 14-inch brick wall."

No significant lateral resistance? You mean other than the weight of all that brick holding the ones underneath in place? Let's see; keeping in mind we're talking 10-foot ceilings: basement, first floor, second floor, steep tall attic, three chimneys roughly 3' x 5', etc. And knee-high parapet walls on the sides. They're convenient when I jump over to my elderly neighbor's roof to clean gutters, paint the metal, repoint brick, check the slate on the front from the top side, etc. It's only about 27' down and 3' over to her house.


Yep, you're guessing, you're wrong, and the walls are brick all the way through. I've punched a couple of holes through with a hammer and chisel. I've drilled through. I've used a hammer drill to anchor a second-floor sunporch. I've watched the cable guy and the Verizon FiOs guys drill through to run cable. Three houses just on my block alone have had wall modifications done - such as expanding a rear door to accommodate French doors - and guess what... solid freaking brick all the way through. 14" of it.

I've only owned this house and lived in it for 29.5 years.

So nice try, but you're wrong pure and simple. But thanks for the history lesson. :)

John
 
"If you gentlemen won't listen to 30 years of LE experience, Then you have already made up your minds and additional information will only confuse you."

You mind if I take my legal advice from a lawyer? I like police officers. My father was a state trooper and my cousin was a county sheriff here in VA for about 30 years, but I still get legal advice from my lawyer.

I don't think it would look very good in court if I used my 3" #2 or #4 Hevi-Shot waterfowl loads at home. I can hear it now, "It's denser than lead, blah, blah, blah and it throws extra tight patterns and it penetrates more than lead, blah, blah, blah."

The other choice is 28 ga. skeet loads. Nope. No thanks.

John
 
johnbt said:
No significant lateral resistance? You mean other than the weight of all that brick holding the ones underneath in place?
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Not exactly, lateral resistance doesn't increase proportionally with the mass of a building, it refers to a building's ability to withstand wind and earthquake forces. With seismic loads, the weight of your structure works against you. As the ground moves, the foundations must follow. Yet, the inertia of the walls, upper floors and roof tends to keep them in place. Lateral resistance is the ability to keep the roof, foundation, and everything in between, working together while the ground and foundation are moving violently. I mention this because Richmond is the yellow portion of the Central Virginia Seismic Zone, and unreinforced masonry structures typically perform poorly during seismic events. This was brought to national attention with the Long Beach earthquake of 1933 where 120 people died. Most of the damage occurred in unreinforced masonry buildings, especially schools. In the aftermath, building codes were rewritten introducing requirements for lateral resistance. John, from what you've said, your place was probably constructed after the last big one in Virginia, the Pearisburg quake of 1897, and before 1933. I makes me wonder why your builders went to the extra expense of solid masonry construction.

Enough gloom and history, getting back on topic... With your solid masonry construction, you're well outside the typical parameters when it comes to discussions of wall penetration by bird shot. And, as you said, there's always the windows.
 
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1916. To the best of my knowledge - living in the area since 1972 - the entire Fan and Museum District was built this way between 1899-ish and 1920-something. I have lots of friends in the construction/renovation business and a buddy who has run his plumbing company for 35 years, so I've heard a lot of stories about pain in the elbow jobs they've done.

The older houses (shallow coal burning fireplaces in each room, etc) tend to have a crawl space with a partial basement pit for the heating system. The 'foundations' are brick on dirt. :eek: Can you say termites? The newer ones like mine :) have full basements with a concrete floor and a wood burning fireplace or 3.

Who knows. I have a copy of a research paper around here somewhere that tells a lot about the who/when/how much, but nothing about why they built this way. Too much money maybe, it was the city's western suburbs of that time. My little 1350 sq.ft. house still has the maid's room in the basement. My neighbor's house was built for her uncle and she still has the floor buzzer button under the dining room table.

We had a quake 5 years ago that cracked a lot of plaster and loosen some mortar. It was centered west of town and wasn't too large, but I heard it and could see stuff sway.

John
 
John, notice that I stated that I was not giving advice. I was wasting my time giving you my lifetime of experience. None of it is advice.

Please continue to pay your lawyer for real advice. Be sure to bring your checkbook.
 
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Thanks hogdogs and RetiredLawman and others

Very sensible and pragmatic approach to the question of HD and shotgun loads. Here's to hoping we don't have to come back to the forum with our own real life experience. Appreciate it.
 
My kin folks were all bootleggers and drunks, a few of them chicken thieves. My family disinherited me for being a cop. I appreciate that your folks were law officers and that you picked up a lot of common sense from them. My folks weren't LEOs, I was. As a supervisory special agent coming up through the ranks, first as a traffic cop, then a real cop, then a detective, then a supervisor, my years of experience are worthless? I have received several private messages from this site thanking me for my common sense approach.

Please disregard my posts as advice. They are not advice. If you want advice from someone who does not care about anything but your wallet, by all means seek out your nearest purveyor of the law. I charge you nothing for giving you what I have seen happen to good and decent folks over my lifetime.

I should have known better than to post on any thread concerning HD. My apologies to one and all. Do not regard my foolish posts as legal advice, please. I'm just an old man thinking about what I've seen go bad over my lifetime.
 
Retired Lawman,
I thought what you wrote was sound, simple and very accurate. I read a lot of your post and I appreciate your experiences and even more, appreciate you sharing them with us.

Buck
 
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