Gun safety psa!!!

H

hogdogs

Staff In Memoriam
Look folks, I am generally an easy going guy and I rarely get riled up... ESPECIALLY FROM INTERNET PROFESSORS!!!!

I am gonna have to admit that in the last 7 days I have let my blood pressure escalate from one repetitious bit of false information. This false information is also very dangerous and should not be posted!

I won't post these as exact quotes for both the restraint of time as well as not to call out each person to do it.

BUT...
Birdshot is not a safer ammunition for home defense due to mitigated risk of over penetration!!!
Possibly for exiting an exterior wall with a robust exterior veneer like brick or thick stucco. For anything less it is not to be considered safe.

Birdshot will have plenty of force to do great bodily harm or death after one wall and possibly even after 2 walls are penetrated. It is extremely irresponsible to claim otherwise. No one familiar with shotguns and ammo would claim it is a safer round in the event of a miss. It is responsible to say that if you miss your target and kill or injure a loved one due to over penetration, your life will immediately change and your happiness will be greatly diminished!:(
Brent
 
I agree 110 pct. People act like birdshot isn't lethal as all get out. They must not go shooting much, because I shoot 7.5 shot all day long and I would NOT doubt it's penetration OR stopping power. You are NOT going to walk away from a close up birdshot blast without some SERIOUS issues on your hands, and even after it travels through a layer of something, say a couch, it's still going to light some unfortunate soul up like a christmas tree.
 
Theres another recent thread here thats over 6 pages long now. Started out with a new member asking about #7 1/2 shot for HD. I suggested to use it because at most HD distances it would incapacitate the BG.

Needless to say I can't believe how many people actually think that someone getting shot with it will just brush it off. I'm starting to think theres waaayyyy too many mall ninja's in here giving their expert advice.
 
There are many cases of birdshot failing to stop a person. The projectile must hit the CNS for a sure INSTANT stop... Some slight brain injuries may not even provide the sure fire stop we need. Birdshot could very easily fail to reac the CNS. A heart hit may leave the BG capable from a few seconds to well over a minute. The larger buck shot has the energy per pellet that may get the deeper penetration we must have.
Yet the risk of a missed shot penetrating the wall and harming an innocent person cannot be shrugged off.
Brent
 
Hogdogs, You are right of course. But in the other thread the thing most people fail to recognize is that most BG are cowards and their self-preservation is usually utmost in their minds.
With that being said, the loud noise of a shotgun going off in a confined space, along with a load of bird shot somewhere in the body, at close range, would usually send them running. I do not think many of them would stick around to see what you just shot them with.
BG: "Awe, that was only bird shot, just a flesh wound, I am still coming for you."

Is it an ideal load for H/D? Probably not. Would it work in a pinch, when you had nothing else? More than likely. Would it stop zombies? I do not know. My zombie bait keeps wanting to go out with her friends to the pool or the mall shopping.
I wonder if there is anyway of getting info on what people have actually used to scare off or stop an intruder.
 
I have investigated a lot cases of home invasions that were stopped with bird shot. I don't recall any that used buckshot. Small shot is very effective in changing a perps plans. I've preached this for years to deaf ears but there are too many that are hung up on buckshot or slugs. People used what they had handy and folks didn't prepare for burglaries or home invasions. When it happened, they popped whatever they had in the gun and had at it. Amazingly, it always worked.

The only time I've ever been involved in a shooting with buckshot was when my partner was hit amidships with a load of 00. He survived but lost a kidney and a couple of years work. Had he been shot with birdshot, no way could they have saved him. It is easier for doctors to work with 9 pellets than four or five hundred that turn the muscle to hamburger.

Some posters talk about police use of buckshot. I carried a shotgun 30 years and never used it except for qualifications. Nowadays, most modern LE agencies are going to the 223 Patrolman semi-auto rifle. Back in my day, the 223 Ruger Mini-14 was the weapon of choice for LE work, when the range was too far for a handgun. It always worked.

For my purposes, I have a 20 gauge pump beside my bed with #6 Walmart promos. I feel perfectly safe. A lifetime of real life experience with crimes of this type tells me that this is sufficient.
 
Birdshot will work, but buckshot will work better.

Analogy - a small pickup may probably pull a decent sized trailer, but a 1-ton duelly will do the job easily.

If all you have is birdshot and a BG needs to get shot, use it. These threads always seem to get into a big ******* match and go on and on.......
 
"and possibly even after 2 walls are penetrated."

Being a stickler for accuracy, you will no doubt appreciate my suggestion that you edit your statement to say Sheetrock or drywall walls.

There's no way a load of birdshot is going through a real interior wall. :)

Around here they are all horsehair plaster on lath, except for some of the large buildings that have be renovated or repurposed into apartments or condos (like the 1920 hospital near me.) The other 5,000 houses in my immediate neighborhood are 1899-1930 vintage and have about an inch of plaster on each side of every wall.

"an exterior wall with a robust exterior veneer like brick or thick stucco."

I never thought of veneer as robust, but I suppose it is when compared to vinyl or aluminum siding. Stucco isn't too bad if it's the real thing and not just a superficial scratch coat for looks.

My exterior walls are 14 inches of solid brick from the basement floor to above the roof line - no wood, no cinderblocks, no insulation. That pretty much leaves the windows as weak spots.

Yours in accuracy,

John
 
Johnbt, Okay I will clarify...
I am talking about standard drywall/sheet rock commonly used in the last 50 years:D:rolleyes:
I also have to say that many many many homes only have the 1/2 inch sheet rock and most video penetration tests you will see use the much heavier 5/8ths that is being used much less often due to rising material costs and the fact that at least one less laborer is required to install.
If I ever end up in a home I build, it will be log and all sleeping quarters on second floor with absolutely no drywall whatsoever... All interior walls would be insulated as well. None of that was intended for HD but wood log siding and insulation will be harder to penetrate.
Brent
 
Walls pretty much everywhere in the US made with drywall is 1/2 inch. The only time you use 5/8 inch is in commercial buildings and the wall on your garage to house, cause it is considered a firewall. Code is 1/2 inch otherwise.

I posted in the other thread about the husband killing his wife with a trap load and I was chastized because people said it is impossible so I just figured forget it, they were there and knew what happend.
 
:)

Hey, I know a guy who still makes a good living doing new residential plaster work as well as some historical renovations. Plaster gives a home a totally different feel and sound.

For those not familiar with the traditional plaster work found in nearly every old building (at least on the east coast), and some new ones, here's what the backside of a plaster on lath wall looks like.

IMG_5137.JPG


The scratch coat is what you see between the lath.

"The first coat is called the scratch coat and is applied at 3/8-inch thick then scratched or scored with a comb to give it a rough texture. The second rough coat is made of the same mixture and is called the "brown coat". The brown coat is applied directly to the scratch coat, also at a 3/8-inch thickness, but left unscored. The sand provides a rough texture that gives the light, 1/8-inch finish coat a surface to grip onto."
 
After a lot of thought, it seems to me that a skeet shotgun (shorter barrel, open choke) loaded with 7 1/2 (could be considered a target round since such a shot load is so common in trap and skeet, especially if there are boxes of 25 such reloads around) could make a reasonable HD weapon.

Since I belong to a gun club and could shoot trap and skeet regularly, the presence of skeet-shooting gear in my house would have no sinister meaning (even if I really don't shoot skeet). If I had a pistol-gripped riot gun like a Mossberg 500 JIC loaded with buckshot, and it was used in a HD situation, it might be too easy for the police to assume I was loaded for humans from the start and went to the shotgun before it was really necessary because that's what I had prepared to do with such weaponry. The circumstances of the shooting would have to leave no room for such a conclusion. On the other hand, if the gun used could clearly be identified as one with other, less aggressive purposes, and I used it for them, but pressed it into HD in an emergency, it might reduce the legal risks involved in shooting at someone.

I guess the response of the police in such circumstances depends heavily on a lot of issues; using the most innocuous gun that would work might be a reasonable place to start avoiding serious difficulties.

I switched the shotgun next to my bed to an open choked 870 loaded with trap reloads, in condition 3 (no kids around).
 
When it comes to guns I have always been of the mindset that an errant shot will kill a loved one far easier than a well placed shot on a BG.

The only way to insure my loved ones are not accidentally shot is to make sure not to fire in their direction... wall or no wall...
Brent
 
Brent, I agree wholeheartedly with your OP. It seems as if some posters here are trying to rehash the age-old argument of whether birdshot will be effective on a BG, when that wasn't the intent of your post at all (at least the way I read it).

Yes, it is the height of irresponsibility to think that switching to birdshot in your shotgun absolves you of the responsibility to know where your loved ones are in your home. If they are downrange they are in danger from your weapon, period. Not many interior walls in modern homes will stop ANY round from a handgun/rifle/shotgun.
 
RR, Funniest thing is my OP was a rant about the irresponsible notion of mitigating risk of overpenetraion. With my relationship with Mr.Murphy... 7 1/2 will kill my loved ones from 100 yards!:o
Brent
 
Longest shot in my home would be maybe 10-12 yds. From my bedroom door to the furthest point in the living room I could see from there. Within that range standard value pack birdshot loads would easily powder two layers of drywall and hurt who ever is on the other side. My house is laid out in such a way, though that I've got a clear line of fire down that hallway if both of my kids are in their bedrooms.

I've said before, though that I worry more about where Mr. Badguy's bullets are flying since he could give a damn about the health and safety of my family. My job as their protector is to put him down hard and fast with whatever I happen to have handy at the moment, be it a .45ACP loaded with 230gr JHP's or a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Switching to birdshot buys me nothing but compromises in effectiveness.

IF I lived in an apartment setting I'm not sure what I'd do. There aren't many good options to avoid hurting someone on the other side of the wall. Birdshot MAY result in a less serious collateral wound to a bystander, but it can still wound an innocent. I guess if I lived in an apartment I'd armor my walls with books and bookshelves or something.
 
at 20 yards i was having 7.5 shot get stuck in the face of my backstop (an old wooden spool) i could pick them out with my fingernail...i'll stick to buckshot in my bedroom gun and leave the birdshot for the birds:D
 
#6 copper plated 12ga. at 6ft.

Picture25.jpg

This is what the aftermath of birdshot at close range looks like 14 years later. The wound was the result of unsafe gun handeling. It almost cost me my life. I posted the story of it on this forum in general discussion. It happned to me. The original wound was near the size of a basket ball. It took out over 20 pounds of muscle. It took quite a bit of phyiscal therapy to fully regain the use of my left arm. I still have pellets imbedded into the bone in places. The barrel of the gun was 18 inches long.
 
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