Gun owner hypocrisy that needs to stop

I drink and have never gotten drunk
When did you start drinking, 35? You must be a saint because I have never met any individual in my short years that drinks but has never gotten drunk.

Unless by some miracle all conservatives are like this (and no offense to conservatives, that wouldn't really surprise me) then I believe you belong to a very small minority. I can't name a single person in their early 20s that hasn't gotten drunk a few times each year since 18/19.

Now I don't mean falling down giggling like a monkey having conversations with lampshades drunk but if you've ever had a six pack worth of beers in the course of a few hours at a barbeque or even two or three at a baseball game, maybe had three or four glasses of wine with Thanksgiving dinner, taken a neat scotch or two after a round of golf....if you've ever done any of those and weigh under roughly 250 pounds then yes sir, you have been drunk.

Maybe not enough for you to notice but impared judgement is one of the very first symptoms of alcohol intoxication. You may not think you're drunk but your reactions have been slowed, your fine motor functions retarded a bit, and your judgement impared enough that you could have a .1 BAC and still think you're completely sober.

I may not know much but I'm in my early 20s, went to college, and typically live in large urban areas which means I see firsthand multiple times a week the effects of booze on people. It's not a harmless drug, it's no less "dangerous to society" than any other drug, and it's far more dangerous to individuals than some of the lighter drugs due to the ease of addiction, tendancy to promote violence and/or depression, and the physiological effects it has on the human body over time.

Why anyone thinks that me wanting to light a bowl before I watch CSI as opposed to drinking a beer is in any way, shape, or form more dangerous to anyone for any reason is a complete and utter mystery to me. The only negative part is that I had to commit a crime to do something that would otherwise be legal if not for the blatantly unjust War on Drugs. Crystal Meth, heroin, Oxycotin, X, K, LSD...I can understand the dangers of those and how they can literally take over a person. I've seen it happen to many people over the years; I've watched people destroy their lives with drugs and I've watched people succeed in spite of their addictions. To keep those illegal until the issue of public health has been address is understandable but at the very least I wish people in this country would give up the bald faced hypocrisy that comes from telling me that my choice of plant is morally wrong while they're sipping a rum & coke, merlot, or amber boch.

It's just wrong.
 
If you replaced "are incapable" with "have rejected the idea", you'd be right on. The vast majority of laws are societie's judgements on some human behavior or another, just as morality is an individual's judgements on the behaviors they see or engage in. Law is an extension of morality, it is not separate from it. The laws a society enacts reflects its values and can determine its course.

That the two should be considered separate is a fallacy.

So things are only wrong and immoral sometimes? Slavery was morally correct when it was legal but now it's a no-no? Saddam had laws, too. I guess his laws and actions were perfectly moral since they were laws.

If you're talking about international law, then since society in the majority of the civilized world has deemed that gun control is the better legal solution for violence any law created must inherently be just and moral. Or are things only immoral when you decide they are? Or when it's written down? You have no right to tell me what to do with my body any more than I have the right to tell you what to do with your guns. You don't own me, nor does any government. I do. My body, my drug, my choice. I have never hurt a single person, ever, with the chemicals that I've put into my body.

But some people get hurt by drugs so they should be taken away to protect society. Some people get hurt by guns, too. Don't give me that crap about one being protected by a document while the other isn't because the whole freaking POINT to that part of that aforementioned document is to preserve freedoms. If the right that's pointed out in the second ammendment isn't asserted in the protection of freedom, then it is utterly meaningless.
 
Scope said:
I do not take that stance. I prefer a strict interpretation of the constitution, allowing those authorities as spelled out in the Bill of Rights and amendments interpreted in the context of the times of those who wrote it.
No I don't think you really do. Because if Commerce was interpreted as it was at the signing of our Constitution, then the Federal Government would have no business banning drugs. Regulating the interstate trade of such, does not by any stretch mean "Ban."

Remember, before the expansion of the Commerce Clause in the 1930's, it required an amendment to that document to ban alcohol. Drugs are no different in that respect. This is not to say that the individual States could not have banned them. It is a power reserved to the States... Something I would support whole heartedly. But just on the strict interpretation (construction = words and phrases mean what they meant when written) of our Constitution, I oppose all federal involvement.
 
No I don't think you really do. Because if Commerce was interpreted as it was at the signing of our Constitution, then the Federal Government would have no business banning drugs. Regulating the interstate trade of such, does not by any stretch mean "Ban." (Antipitas)

That's a good point, and something I will have to think more about. Much of drug trafficking involves crossing our international borders, which I think justifies some federal involvement in drug trafficking and dealing. As for drug use, laws governing its regulation probably should be dealt with by individual states.

When did you start drinking, 35? You must be a saint because I have never met any individual in my short years that drinks but has never gotten drunk. (Redworm)

Congradulations, you've now met one. And while I had small amount of wine growing up, I did not seek alcohol for myself until I was 24.

As for the rest of your post if this topic was only about weed I would not have bothered to jump in. I think its more potent than alcohol and I still support its status as illegal, but when I consider the drug war weed is not the first thing that comes to mind. Cocaine, meth, and other such drugs are more important to me than weed.

So things are only wrong and immoral sometimes?

If you believe morality is realtive, yes. Using an example, lets say Saddam decided that certain people's lives were disposable. When he did that he made a moral judgement about someone else's worth. He extended that judgement to social policy, and hence to law, and people were killed. What he considered moral was the root of the laws he enacted. To him it was perfectly moral. That relationship between morality and law is no different with us, no matter how hard we try to divorce it. I'll state it again: law is an extension of morality, it is not separate from it.

Whether or not there is an absolute morality by which people's ideas of what is moral can be judged is another argument entirely. If you've kept up with my posts you probably know where I stand. But there is no philisophical basis for declaring absolute morality only when its convenient, and declaring morality fluid when it suits our needs. And so when I vote or try to interpret what the constitution means I do so in the context of what I believe to be right.

Slavery was morally correct when it was legal but now it's a no-no? Saddam had laws, too. I guess his laws and actions were perfectly moral since they were laws.

I said law extended from morality, not morality from law. I never suggested they were equivalent, only related. Of course, if you want to argue that point be my guest.

Don't give me that crap about one being protected by a document while the other isn't because the whole freaking POINT to that part of that aforementioned document is to preserve freedoms.

Well I am going to give you crap about one being protected and the other not. The intention of the consitution was not to give absolute and unlimited rights to the people, but to set up a system by which these rights were balanced against recognized legitimate interests of the state and community, including setting standards of conduct. And yes, one right is explicitly stated while the other you propose is a construct of your imagination. I see no need or justification to interpretting the 9th amendment the way you want it interpreted.
 
If you believe morality is realtive, yes. Using an example, lets say Saddam decided that certain people's lives were disposable. When he did that he made a moral judgement about someone else's worth. He extended that judgement to social policy, and hence to law, and people were killed. What he considered moral was the root of the laws he enacted. To him it was perfectly moral. That relationship between morality and law is no different with us, no matter how hard we try to divorce it. I'll state it again: law is an extension of morality, it is not separate from it.

Whether or not there is an absolute morality by which people's ideas of what is moral can be judged is another argument entirely. If you've kept up with my posts you probably know where I stand. But there is no philisophical basis for declaring absolute morality only when its convenient, and declaring morality fluid when it suits our needs. And so when I vote or try to interpret what the constitution means I do so in the context of what I believe to be right.

But the plant is not illegal because society as a whole decided, it's illegal due to deception and racism (which I guess was moral to those involved). Have you ever seen an anti-drug commercial from the 50s? The law was created unjustly by conning the people with blatantly false information into being afraid of something that was once a staple of the very men that wrote the document we're so adamant about protecting.

Well I am going to give you crap about one being protected and the other not. The intention of the consitution was not to give absolute and unlimited rights to the people, but to set up a system by which these rights were balanced against recognized legitimate interests of the state and community, including setting standards of conduct. And yes, one right is explicitly stated while the other you propose is a construct of your imagination. I see no need or justification to interpretting the 9th amendment the way you want it interpreted.

But weren't these standards of conduct supposed to be set by the people as a whole as opposed to a handful of men?
 
But the plant is not illegal because society as a whole decided, it's illegal due to deception and racism (which I guess was moral to those involved). Have you ever seen an anti-drug commercial from the 50s?

I've seen some of the commercials from the 50's and 60's, and indeed they were corney.

I don't have too strong of an opinion on whether or not marijuana is unfairly penalized under our system. I have never used it, and I am not going to try it. Nothing good came of it for those I know who did get into it. The line between personal freedom and social responsibility has to be drawn somewhere, and I am comfortable where it is. But there is no way I am going to to say that society is wrong for condemning the use of meth, cocaine, crack, and all the other strong psychoactive drugs.

The law was created unjustly by conning the people with blatantly false information into being afraid of something that was once a staple of the very men that wrote the document we're so adamant about protecting.

I am not going to buy the "staple of the very men ..." portion without some good backup documentation.

But weren't these standards of conduct supposed to be set by the people as a whole as opposed to a handful of men?

Technically our government is a republic, not a pure democracy. I think our representative system has worked pretty well in striking a balance between the will of the majority and the rights of the minorities, at least compared to any other government in history.
 
I've seen some of the commercials from the 50's and 60's, and indeed they were corney.

I don't have too strong of an opinion on whether or not marijuana is unfairly penalized under our system. I have never used it, and I am not going to try it. Nothing good came of it for those I know who did get into it. The line between personal freedom and social responsibility has to be drawn somewhere, and I am comfortable where it is. But there is no way I am going to to say that society is wrong for condemning the use of meth, cocaine, crack, and all the other strong psychoactive drugs.

It's not for everyone but just because the people you knew were simply too irresponsible to use it wisely doesn't mean others are. Just look at NORML's supporters and you'll find a slew of doctors, lawyers, scientists, businessmen, artists that have all become useful members of society despite enjoying the drug. Take a look at the artists in your music collection; I'd be willing to bet a good potion of them are current users.

Yeah, I've known plenty of people who stagnated their lives with marijuana. Most of them were lazy and/or stupid to begin with, the drug just gave them an outlet to express that laziness and stupidity. It doesn't cause these negative effects anymore than alcohol causes domestic violence or drunk driving. People make their own choices and no drug has ever forced a person to do something he did not choose to do.

Harder drugs are a more complex issue but there are varying levels of strength. Cocaine is a perfect example of a drug that is not very dangerous until abused. Chemically it's almost identical to caffiene; I've known security guards, postal workers, paramedics and firefighters, med students, and other people who have used it responsibly to stay awake during their longer shifts. It doesn't alter brain chemistry any more than caffiene does, nor is it any more addictive. It's abuse of the drug that causes problems.

I've never used meth or any of the popular party drugs (mainly because I don't like pills of anything, really) but I don't see how private, responsible use can be a burden on society. If a man ruins his life because of an addiction to a drug it should be a public health concern, not a law enforcement problem. It's still noone else's business what one person does to their own body and as prohibition in any form (of alcohol, guns, and drugs) has taught us, the simple fact that these things are illegal is what causes the majority of the crime. If they were decriminalized and targeted via health care education you'd have fewer kids enticed into trying something simply because it's forbidden or out of curiosity as well as less money going into the hands of drug dealers.

Laws against drugs are as effective as laws against guns. It's lunacy to think that drug control is any better at solving problems in society as gun control.

I am not going to buy the "staple of the very men ..." portion without some good backup documentation.
http://www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/180/highsociety.html

as a start, I'll get more for you after work
Technically our government is a republic, not a pure democracy. I think our representative system has worked pretty well in striking a balance between the will of the majority and the rights of the minorities, at least compared to any other government in history.
Yes but it wasn't the republic that chose to outlaw marijuana. I agree that our government strikes a nice balance but the will of the majority and the rights of minority were completely subverted by a single man and his racist ideals. [/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger
 
Not everyone drinks to get drunk or to be socially accepted. I drink and have never gotten drunk.
So why do you drink?
Plus alcohol is good for cooking, which I also use it for.
Very true, it can be.
Your arguments hinge on every person who drinks is abusing alcohol, and that is simply not true.
So what you're saying is that some recreational drugs can be used without being abused ... right?

Do you have evidence which states that no drug which is currently illegal can be used without being abused, just as your preferred recreational drug can be? Can you prove scientifically that alcohol is a better drug to use in moderate quantities than any illicit recreational drug?

If so, may I see that evidence?
"if misused" being the key phrase. And while what you say is true, that doesn't mean heroine should be legalized. I would rather see punishment for those who abuse alcohol.
Okay, I still don't buy the punishing someone for damaging their own body, but would you at least agree that just the people who abuse a substance should be punished - not the people who simply use them? If misuse and abuse is your problem, punish that.
No, you said the difference was meaningless.
Meaningless when it comes to what should define governmental interference. You know, the entire point of the thread.
I do not take that stance. I prefer a strict interpretation of the constitution, allowing those authorities as spelled out in the Bill of Rights and amendments interpreted in the context of the times of those who wrote it. But I believe I have covered this point before.
Antipitas addressed this nicely, and I think demonstrated quite nicely that the position of federal bans on domestically produced chemicals or crops are unconstitutional. And I agree with you when you say it should be left up to the states.

But it isn't.
I do not ignore their effects, but I don't think they are bad enough to require making them illegal.
Wow ... in your mind the effects of alcohol and tobacco are not bad enough to make them illegal? I think you must be ignoring the effects.
Caffeine has similar effects in the way it is used today as cocaine did a century ago. How long until people start abusing caffeine?
I don't believe that at all.
Believe whatever you want.
When chewed, taken as a tea, or used as an additive to foods and beverages, the cocaine in coca leaves acts as a mild stimulant similar to caffeine. Do a little reading on Vin Mariani (a favorite for Pope Leo XIII, Pope Saint Pius X and Queen Victoria), or maybe the Journal of the American Medical Association's report on "Health Inca Tea". In higher concentrations, cocaine was commonly used as a topical anesthetic - for instance as a remedy for toothache.
Yeah, but not here. Should nerve gas be sold on the open market?
Don't quite see what that has to do with machine guns.
Go look up the thread if your really that interested in finding out what I think.
If I have time, I will, but I spent some time helping Don Gwinn and some other friendlies debate on Michael Moore's old forum way back when, so I've probably already heard the excuses.
As I said, I drink but have never become drunk. Moderate use of alcohol does not cause people to lose control.
Nor does moderate use of cocaine, opiates and THC. Objectively, moderate use of any of those substances or alcohol - if pure and properly produced - will cause minor, temporary intoxication and few long term effects.

If cocaine, opiates or THC containing plants were legal, there would be those who would abuse them - just as there are those who abuse alcohol today. And there would be those who would use them in moderation.
If people lived in a vacuum than I would agree, but we don't. What people do can hurt those around them, even if they did not intend it. I see no reason why society should turn a blind eye to substance abuse just because someone tries to do it alone.
Do you advocate restricting all things that can cause devastating effects on a person's life? If not, what standard do you use to determine which should and which should not be restricted?
I am not intimately familiar with laws regulating alcohol, but the few I know (age limits, open containers in public, etc) I do support. I also support having strict punishments for those who get drunk in public and those who drink and drive.
What about those who routinely get drunk in private and destroy themselves by drinking to avoid reality?
Same to you, Mr. Morality. Why don't you tell me again how much you despise the evil of drug use, but you just can't bring your bleeding heart to do anything about it.
You don't know what the word "hypocritical" means, do you?

I fully practice what I preach. I despise drug abuse of the legal or illegal variety, and don't care for moderate drug use. I avoid recreational drugs - except for caffeine which I neither seek nor avoid, but in which I rarely partake, even so.

Calling me a hypocrite here is like saying that a law-abiding citizen who defends the Fourth Amendment must really have something to hide. It does not follow.
If you believe morality is realtive, yes. Using an example, lets say Saddam decided that certain people's lives were disposable. When he did that he made a moral judgement about someone else's worth. He extended that judgement to social policy, and hence to law, and people were killed. What he considered moral was the root of the laws he enacted. To him it was perfectly moral. That relationship between morality and law is no different with us, no matter how hard we try to divorce it. I'll state it again: law is an extension of morality, it is not separate from it.
Ah! I see now. So for you something can be evil and moral at the same time.
We were just using different definitions.
Okay, using your definitions, it is immoral to exceed the speed limit, right? But state sponsored genocide is moral? I think I'm catching on.

And you were accusing me of saying that nothing is bad. HA!
But there is no philisophical basis for declaring absolute morality only when its convenient, and declaring morality fluid when it suits our needs.
Isn't that exactly what you are doing, though?
Drug use is bad except when it is a drug you like to use.
The line between personal freedom and social responsibility has to be drawn somewhere, and I am comfortable where it is. But there is no way I am going to to say that society is wrong for condemning the use of meth, cocaine, crack, and all the other strong psychoactive drugs.
There is a major difference between condemning the use of drugs (what I do) and engaging in a War on people who use the drugs you aren't comfortable with (what you advocate).
 
http://www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/180/highsociety.html

as a start, I'll get more for you after work

seems I need to keep searching. I've found quite a few links supporting the claims that washington and jefferson both had hemp plantations and that franklin enjoyed the plant's recreational use himself but since google's pagerank is based on an algorithm that relies on interlinking and popularity, the majority of the sites are from pro-drug organizations. as soon as I find an unbiased, neutral source of information (which may require a quick trip the library) I'll let y'all know
 
Let me get this straight, it took a constitutional amendment to allow the Federal government to regulate Alchohol. OK.

Where is the constitutional amendment allowing the Federal Government to regulate drugs?

Geoff
Who is not a drug abuser.
 
Geoff, the trail of the drug bans follows the same exact trail of the gun bans.

To make alcohol unlawful, it required an amendment to the Constitution (#18 - 1/16/1919)... Which after it was blatantly obvious, another amendment (#21 - 12/5/1933) to repeal the first one.

Then drugs were heavily taxed (1931 - opium & cocaine, 1937 - marijuana). As were certain firearms (1934 - NFA, 1937 - FFA). Then the Supreme Court started expanding the Commerce Clause. Then both drugs (1965 & 1971 CDA) and guns (1968 - GCA, 1986 - FOPA) were outright banned, using the expanded powers that the Court handed the Congress. The time lines between guns and drugs diverge a bit in the mid thirties, but the route taken is the same.

When you really start looking, you will find several parallels to expanded powers and various prohibitions. Drugs and guns are simply the most obvious.
 
Do you have evidence which states that no drug which is currently illegal can be used without being abused, just as your preferred recreational drug can be? Can you prove scientifically that alcohol is a better drug to use in moderate quantities than any illicit recreational drug?

I think the strength of the drugs currently considered illegal justify their status.

If misuse and abuse is your problem, punish that.

One use of the stronger drugs is abuse enough, IMO, to warrant the punishments the government serves out.

Wow ... in your mind the effects of alcohol and tobacco are not bad enough to make them illegal?

I never mentioned anything about tobacco. I don't think the psychoactive effects are particularly impairing, though.

Believe whatever you want.

So I shall.

Don't quite see what that has to do with machine guns.

The 2nd amendment doesn't say "right of the people to keep and bear guns", it say "right of the people to keep and bear arms." Do you support unrestricted arms sales to civilians in the same way that you support unrestricted drug sales to civilians?

Do you advocate restricting all things that can cause devastating effects on a person's life? If not, what standard do you use to determine which should and which should not be restricted?

What part of "moderation" don't understand? Not everything is either restricted or full access.

What about those who routinely get drunk in private and destroy themselves by drinking to avoid reality?

rehab

You don't know what the word "hypocritical" means, do you?

Yes, I do. I practice what I preach. Thanks.

Calling me a hypocrite here is like saying that a law-abiding citizen who defends the Fourth Amendment must really have something to hide. It does not follow.

No, calling you a hypocrite is like saying that to someone who blabs on about the evils of drugs abuse and then tries to justify it under the 9th amendment.

Ah! I see now. So for you something can be evil and moral at the same time.
We were just using different definitions.

Believe it or not there are multiple definitions of "moral" in the dictionary and you just might have to pick the correct one based on the context its used in. Here are the first two definitions in my dictionary:

1) of or relating to the principles of right or wrong
2) conforming to a standard of right behavior

A person's choice can be an "immoral" choice in that it does not conform to a standard of right behavior, but still be a "moral" choice in that it is in the realm of what we call "morality." You know, this isn't that hard.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing, though?

No. I believe the moral standards as laid out in the Pentateuch and by the prophets are above the constitution, but one of the standards laid out is that we should honor the covenants we are in insofar as they do not strictly go against God. The moderation I suggest is my attempt at fulfilling both.

There is a major difference between condemning the use of drugs (what I do) and engaging in a War on people who use the drugs you aren't comfortable with (what you advocate).

Oh please, the war on drugs is more a war on logistics and distribution than mere use by individuals. Stop trying to make it sound like all they do is steal people's hash bowls and throw them in prison. Do you think I want the government to break into someone's house because they're smoking a reefer? No, I don't. I already said I support the 4th amendment. But those who traffick it, sell it, and incite others to use it, I say throw the book at them.
 
Do you support unrestricted arms sales to civilians in the same way that you support unrestricted drug sales to civilians?

Unrestricted sale of drugs would be a bad idea just like unrestriced sale of alcohol. That's why alcohol is heavily regulated. Over the counter medications are also heavily regulated and they can also be abused. One of the arguments against the war on drugs is that if legal these drugs can be regulated. When there is no regulation the risk of accidental deaths and other complications increases.

I don't see how selling a baggie in a store catering to to this market would be controlled any different than a liquor store. Have you ever used any other drug besides alcohol? I ask because you made a comment about the strength of illegal drugs justifying the laws. If you haven't then, with all due respect, you really have no foot to stand on in talking about the relative strengths.

Oh please, the war on drugs is more a war on logistics and distribution than mere use by individuals. Stop trying to make it sound like all they do is steal people's hash bowls and throw them in prison. Do you think I want the government to break into someone's house because they're smoking a reefer? No, I don't. I already said I support the 4th amendment. But those who traffick it, sell it, and incite others to use it, I say throw the book at them.

As it happens you just presented a wonderful argument for decriminalization and eventual legalization. If legal and regulated the whole focus of the war on drugs can be directed at the illegal traffickers, similar to how they're already targeted for the trafficking of pharmaceuticals. But yes, they do steal hash bowls and throw people into prison. There are minimum mandatory sentencing laws that apply strictly to possession alone. Sitting on your front porch smoking a joint and watching the sunset can land you in jail.


Of all people, gun owners should understand how prohibition simply does not work, that making crimes out of things that are by themselves not crimes only creates criminals in otherwise law abiding populations and feeds money to the actual bad people in society. How is that socially acceptable?
 
I have some questions about addiction.

I understand that some things are addictive like TV (association and mental addiction), and some things are addictive like.... say nicotine.

What drugs are like TV and what drugs are like nicotine?
 
I think the strength of the drugs currently considered illegal justify their status.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you have any real evidence on the relative strengths of drugs at all.
One use of the stronger drugs is abuse enough, IMO, to warrant the punishments the government serves out.
Interesting ...
When I asked you what the government should do to people who routinely destroy their life with alcohol, you said simply:
Yet if someone so much as uses one "of the stronger drugs" once, you think that whatever punishment the government gives is appropriate (in this case, felony conviction, multiple years of incarceration, fines, etc).

That doesn't strike you as inappropriate? Someone who routinely and habitually destroys their own life and health with alcohol abuse (obviously causing adverse effects to their loved ones) should simply be given a chance to go to rehab, but if someone so much as tries any illicit drug they should be immediately arrested and imprisoned and have their life destroyed by the legal system?
I never mentioned anything about tobacco. I don't think the psychoactive effects are particularly impairing, though.
So the only effects that impact your decisions as to what should be legal or illegal are the psychoactive ones?
What part of "moderation" don't understand? Not everything is either restricted or full access.
I certainly do understand moderation, but what I don't see are what rules you apply to determine what you think should be regulated by the government. Frankly, I don't think you have any basis for your position. You keep referring to scripture and the constitution as your basis for morality (note: I'm not referring to legality here, I'm referring to right or wrong, seperate and distinct from law), but I'm not aware of any scriptural or constitutional reference to regulation of drugs or stopping others from willfully harming themselves.

Enlighten me, please. Tell me what rules you apply to make your decisions. Or do you simply not have any? If you haven't considered it enough and are simply reacting with a "Drugs is bad, so they should be illegal!", that's fine. If you've put some thought into it and you know why you hold your position, I'd love to hear a consistent and logical thought process.
No, calling you a hypocrite is like saying that to someone who blabs on about the evils of drugs abuse and then tries to justify it under the 9th amendment.
You still can't make the distinction between bad and illegal, can you? See, I feel drugs are bad, but don't feel they should be illegal.

I'll say it again, there are many things I think are wrong that I don't think should be illegal. I think there are many things that are right that are currently illegal.

How about you? Do you feel all the laws on the books today are right and good?
Believe it or not there are multiple definitions of "moral" in the dictionary and you just might have to pick the correct one based on the context its used in. Here are the first two definitions in my dictionary:

1) of or relating to the principles of right or wrong
2) conforming to a standard of right behavior

A person's choice can be an "immoral" choice in that it does not conform to a standard of right behavior, but still be a "moral" choice in that it is in the realm of what we call "morality." You know, this isn't that hard.
Pal, you've been switching up the definition you've been using left and right to suit your argument at the time. When you started using it, it was in reference to God given law (thus: absolute right and wrong). When I replied using the same word in reference to a lack in modern laws (in other words, that some modern laws were wrong or bad), you assumed I was using the defintion as "an arbitrary standard of behavior as defined by law" and stated that the two could not be separated.

You - not I - were the one unable or unwilling to extract the definition from the context.

Do you believe a law can be wrong?
No. I believe the moral standards as laid out in the Pentateuch and by the prophets are above the constitution, but one of the standards laid out is that we should honor the covenants we are in insofar as they do not strictly go against God. The moderation I suggest is my attempt at fulfilling both.
I can respect your best attempt at fulfilling both. Do you believe that controlling the behavior of others is necessary to your own obedience to your understanding of Biblical writ and the constitution?
Oh please, the war on drugs is more a war on logistics and distribution than mere use by individuals. Stop trying to make it sound like all they do is steal people's hash bowls and throw them in prison. Do you think I want the government to break into someone's house because they're smoking a reefer? No, I don't. I already said I support the 4th amendment. But those who traffick it, sell it, and incite others to use it, I say throw the book at them.
There is nothing in United States law that says "If you are just smoking a little pot at home alone and without harming anyone, you won't get busted."

Anyhow, you just said that a single use of any of the "harder drugs" (however you define that) is abuse enough in your mind to excuse any punishment currently assigned by the government.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you have any real evidence on the relative strengths of drugs at all.

Hard numbers, no. Basic ideas based on what I've observed and what I've been taught, yes.

Yet if someone so much as uses one "of the stronger drugs" once, you think that whatever punishment the government gives is appropriate (in this case, felony conviction, multiple years of incarceration, fines, etc).
...
Anyhow, you just said that a single use of any of the "harder drugs" (however you define that) is abuse enough in your mind to excuse any punishment currently assigned by the government.

That's because the punishment usually isn't particularly harsh, and may just be rehab. Most of the time people get dismissed from jobs or have to do a little community service. Maybe in your state they throw them in a hole, but not here in Cali. My first year in college my roommate got busted for dealing drugs out of our room, and I saw him again at college one year later still enrolled. I don't know of anyone who's done serious time for using drugs, and I doubt there are many cases. Its not like we cane them or whip them or execute them. Usually histories of violence and gun possession are greater factors in determining ones time in prison than the actual drug use. So spare me any rant you may have about how they are unfairly victimized.

So the only effects that impact your decisions as to what should be legal or illegal are the psychoactive ones?

Here's a statement I made earlier. "If that something takes away their ability to exhibit self control and contemplate proper choices, and probably makes them dangerous to people around them, then yes you do (imprisoning people who intoxicate themselves)." Do the math.

Frankly, I don't think you have any basis for your position. You keep referring to scripture and the constitution as your basis for morality (note: I'm not referring to legality here, I'm referring to right or wrong, seperate and distinct from law), but I'm not aware of any scriptural or constitutional reference to regulation of drugs or stopping others from willfully harming themselves.

Then go read all the passages in the Bible condemning drunkenness, idolatry, and uncleanliness. And then go read those that promote self control and turning away from wasting your life pursuing the pleasures of the flesh.

I said the Constitution was a covenant and should be interpreted in the context it was written.

I can respect your best attempt at fulfilling both. Do you believe that controlling the behavior of others is necessary to your own obedience to your understanding of Biblical writ and the constitution?

You don't? Do you believe people should be able to buy nerve gas?

Actually, I had a serious answer for this but I am not going to bother. You produce more questions about what I believe than statements about what you believe, which is the general habit of a wannabe academic who would rather pick on someone else's opinion than defend their own. How about you make a statement about why you think there should be limitations on what arms people can buy despite the 2nd amendment (assuming this is your stance) but there should be no regulation of what drugs people can buy according to your definition of the 9th amendment. How about you say why whether a person hurts themselves or another is a valid philosophical basis for what society should allow them to do. How about you make a statement of why prosecuting people for trafficking drugs is a violation of their rights as defined by the Constitution. How about you make a statement about why society should have its law turn a blind eye to substance abuse and not punish it, other than thats the way you "feel." How about you state what you think is the origin of law, and whether or not morality fits in.

Pal, you've been switching up the definition you've been using left and right to suit your argument at the time. When you started using it, it was in reference to God given law (thus: absolute right and wrong). When I replied using the same word in reference to a lack in modern laws (in other words, that some modern laws were wrong or bad), you assumed I was using the defintion as "an arbitrary standard of behavior as defined by law" and stated that the two could not be separated.

Actually, you said "You are incapable of seeing the difference between legality and morality. To you, if something is immoral, it should be illegal and if it is legal it must be moral." I see no reason to interpret this any other way than that you are accusing me of not seeing the difference between what is of the realm of law and what is of the realm of morality. I answered in that context.

And no, the definition "an arbitrary standard of behavior as defined by law" never crossed my mind. Its not in any dictionary I looked in. Since you are so interested in putting words in my mouth and making up your own definitions, why don't you go ahead and have an argument with yourself.
 
Last edited:
That's because the punishment usually isn't particularly harsh, and may just be rehab.
A felony conviction is always a pretty serious thing and I think sentencing for possession is a little harsher than you might think.
Regardless, the punishment for possession of - for instance - a single joint are absolutely and undeniably much, much, much more serious than the punishments for drinking yourself into a stupor every evening.

You have managed to avoid addressing this discrepancy entirely. I tend to believe you don't see this as a problem.
Here's a statement I made earlier. "If that something takes away their ability to exhibit self control and contemplate proper choices, and probably makes them dangerous to people around them, then yes you do (imprisoning people who intoxicate themselves)." Do the math.
So self-destruction isn't an issue to you, really. Psychoactive intoxication of any sort is.

Unless it is alcohol.

Again with that inconsistency.
Then go read all the passages in the Bible condemning drunkenness, idolatry, and uncleanliness. And then go read those that promote self control and turning away from wasting your life pursuing the pleasures of the flesh.
Oh, I've read those plenty of times, and I work to live my life accordingly. The ones I'm looking for are the ones that say that an earthly government should enforce devine law.
Actually, I had a serious answer for this, but I am not going to bother. You produce more questions about what I believe than statements about what you believe, which is the general habit of a wannabe academic who would rather pick on someone else's opinion than protect their own.
*laugh*
You make it sound as if asking questions is a bad thing.
You've avoided answering my questions. Why? Have I avoided answering yours?

And if you thought I hadn't made statements about my beliefs, you obviously haven't been reading my posts.
How about you make a statement about why you think there should be limitations on what arms people can buy despite the 2nd amendment (assuming this is your stance) but there should be no regulation of what drugs people can buy according to your definition of the 9th amendment.
I don't.
How about you say why whether a person hurts themselves or another is a valid philisophical basis for what society should allow them to do.
I thought that I stated this very clearly.
An adult who chooses to hurt themselves is not an issue for the government to address.
One person hurting another might be, depending on the circumstances.
Some examples to help you understand what I mean:
1. Somene enjoys overeating to the point of obesity and in so doing develops various health problems.
- Not a situation where the government needs to step in and ban unhealthy foods or enforce mandatory exercise programs.
2. Someone likes to participate in full-contact kickboxing and while they kickbox they get the crap beat out of them and they beat the everliving daylights out of other consenting adults.
- Not a situation where the government needs to step in and ban martial arts or regulate them to points matches only.
3. Someone likes to hit little old grannies and take their purses.
- A perfect situation for the government to step in and work to control muggings.
4. Someone takes drugs (alcohol, pot, heroin, whatever) to the point that their health or mental state suffers, but they do it in the privacy and safety of their own home and they are the only ones harmed.
- Not a situation where the government needs to step in and ban some of the dangerous chemicals.
5. Someone takes drugs (alcohol, pot, heroin, whatever) to the point that their health or mental state suffers, and then they beat up their children.
- A perfect situation for the government to step in to work to prevent domestic violence.

Clear enough?
How about you make a statement of why prosecuting people for trafficking drugs is a violation of their rights as defined by the Constitution.
This doesn't speak highly of your knowledge of the purpose of the Constitution.
The Constitution does not define every right you have. Prosecuting people for trafficking drugs is every bit as Constitutional as prosecuting sex within marriage.
How about you make a statement about why society should have its law turn a blind eye to substance abuse and not pnuish it, other than thats the way you "feel."
Because a free human - if nothing else - has the right to destroy their own body and/or mind if they so choose.

This is not to say society need turn a blind eye to substance abuse, but as you say, should allow people with self-destructive inclinations to punish themselves.

You've not made any argument for drug restrictions beyond your own personal feelings. I oppose drug restrictions based on the concept of self-ownership, personal freedom and the fact that the Constitution you speak so highly of does not allow for Federal involvement in the matter at all without an amendment to do so.

By the way, trying to reverse questions you can't answer without even trying to answer them is a perfect example of "a wannabe academic who would rather pick on someone else's opinion than protect their own," isn't it?

I've tried to answer the questions you've posed (however poor they may be). Now would you like to answer the ones I posed to you?
Actually, you said "You are incapable of seeing the difference between legality and morality. To you, if something is immoral, it should be illegal and if it is legal it must be moral." I see no reason to interpret this any other way than that you are accusing me of not seeing the difference between what is of the realm of law and what is of the realm of morality. I aswered in that context.
You answered by saying it was a fallacy to divide the two and went on to connect them by stating that morality leads to law, which it doesn't always.
What makes you think I was ever using the definition "an arbitrary standard of behavior as defined by law"?
When you suggested that it is a fallacy to claim that one can separate law and morality.
Since you're so interested in putting words into my mouth why don't you go ahead and have an argument with yourself.
I've not intentionally put words in your mouth, but I have had an argument with myself on this very issue. My considered position is the result of that very debate. Have you given thought to your position?

But this semantical argument is beside the point.

Ever since you entered this discussion, you have argued that anything that - when abused - can be intoxicating in a psychoactive manner should be banned, but you admit you drink alcohol and have no desire to see it regulated similarly. You have argued that you support a strict view of the Constitution, but remain unconcerned with unConstitutional authority assumed by the Federal government when they chose to launch the War on Drugs without amending the Constitution as they did to ban alcohol. You have been in no way consistent, objective or logical. Whatever merit your position may have is hidden by your inability to even define the "why" of your belief.

I think you could stand to learn more about why you believe the way you do. If you care about that sort of thing.
 
Moderation

Everything in moderation. U can't be a law abiding gun owner if U break the law. last I checked heroin is against the law. alcohol and firearms do not mix.
 
A felony conviction is always a pretty serious thing and I think sentencing for possession is a little harsher than you might think.

I doubt it. I've seen what happens, and it is hardly what I would consider harsh.

Regardless, the punishment for possession of - for instance - a single joint are absolutely and undeniably much, much, much more serious than the punishments for drinking yourself into a stupor every evening.

You have managed to avoid addressing this discrepancy entirely. I tend to believe you don't see this as a problem.

See the bottom of post 57.

So self-destruction isn't an issue to you, really. Psychoactive intoxication of any sort is. Unless it is alcohol.

Again, see the bottom of post 57.

Oh, I've read those plenty of times, and I work to live my life accordingly. The ones I'm looking for are the ones that say that an earthly government should enforce devine law.

I guess you missed that part of the Bible called the Old Testament, where God kept calling Israel to return to the Law. When it was written in Leviticus that adultery was punishable by death and that we should not take our covenants lightly maybe you thought they were big holy suggestions.

You've avoided answering my questions.

Nonsense. I've answered the majority of your questions, even the repeated ones. You, on the other hand, have managed to say very little about the basis for your beliefs, only simply that you do believe. About the only thing you've said is that the government shouldn't be involved in people's personal lives, and your little self endorsements about how you hate drugs.

So now, give me a straight answer. Do you think private citizens should be able to buy nerve gas?

I thought that I stated this very clearly.
An adult who chooses to hurt themselves is not an issue for the government to address.

Up to this point you haven't. Why is self-destruction not an issue for the government?

The Constitution does not define every right you have. Prosecuting people for trafficking drugs is every bit as Constitutional as prosecuting sex within marriage.

I think that would fall under the 9th amendment, if you interpret the constitution in the context of what the framers intended.

I oppose drug restrictions based on the concept of self-ownership, personal freedom and the fact that the Constitution you speak so highly of does not allow for Federal involvement in the matter at all without an amendment to do so.

And I have said that I believe that the right were not meant to be solely at the governments expense, but that the rights were meant to be balanced by the authority of the government to regulate society.

By the way, trying to reverse questions you can't answer without even trying to answer them is a perfect example of "a wannabe academic who would rather pick on someone else's opinion than protect their own," isn't it?

Well I was getting tired of your posing, and I think I had answered enough to justify my call.

I've tried to answer the questions you've posed (however poor they may be). Now would you like to answer the ones I posed to you?

Go back and look at the posts. I've answered just about every question you asked.

You answered by saying it was a fallacy to divide the two and went on to connect them by stating that morality leads to law, which it doesn't always.

And you managed to misinterpret everything I wrote along the way. So make an argument, what other basis for law is there other than morality? You said before that I cannot see the difference between legality and morality. Please tell me about it if you are so knowledgable.

I've not intentionally put words in your mouth, but I have had an argument with myself on this very issue. My considered position is the result of that very debate. Have you given thought to your position?

Yup.

Ever since you entered this discussion, you have argued that anything that - when abused - can be intoxicating in a psychoactive manner should be banned, but you admit you drink alcohol and have no desire to see it regulated similarly.

See the bottom and top of post 57. The strength of a drug does make a difference, IMO, and I do support stricter punishments for alcohol.

You have argued that you support a strict view of the Constitution, but remain unconcerned with unConstitutional authority assumed by the Federal government when they chose to launch the War on Drugs without amending the Constitution as they did to ban alcohol.

As I said, I disagree with your interpretation. I also said that Antipitas made a good point.

You have been in no way consistent, objective or logical. Whatever merit your position may have is hidden by your inability to even define the "why" of your belief.

Yeah right, go look in a mirror. Considering how long it took you to understand or acknowledge even my simple argument about why law is derived from morality I am inclined to believe you simply read what you to read, regardless of what I write.
 
Last edited:
I doubt it. I've seen what happens, and it is hardly what I would consider harsh.

You really believe that a guy hitting a bong on Sunday afternoon deserves a harsher punishment than a guy downing a six pack during a football game?

What do you mean you've seen what happens? What happens?
 
Back
Top