TeamSinglestack
New member
"I am the ONLY one here professional enough to use this surefire weapon mounted BAAANG!!......"
Gun-mounted flashlight blamed in fatal shooting
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
DT GUY beat me to the draw with the "low ready" post. My training is to go to low ready, finger off trigger (of course) and, if situation deteriorates, to COM or even pelvic area.
From what I gathered reading the article, the officer was concerned that the drug dealer, being a convicted felon, might be armed. He had every right to have his weapon drawn but should have been in low ready and this incident may have been avoided.
From what I gathered reading the article, the officer was concerned that the drug dealer, being a convicted felon, might be armed. He had every right to have his weapon drawn but should have been in low ready and this incident may have been avoided.
Catfishman
New member
How about simply aiming low while scanning and identifing the threat. Gun lights are extremely bright.
This story brings up another issue that many people don't like to discuss. If the illumination switch can be so easily confused with a pistol trigger, then it seems to me that the trigger poundage is too light. The Surefire switch requires low pressure to activate so if the trigger was noticeably heavier, this could provide the mental warning that an accidental discharge was about to occur and the shooter would have a chance to rethink firing the gun.
There may be some advantages to a lighter trigger but I think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. During an adrenaline surge of a self defense incident, a light trigger can be a serious liability and a heavier trigger does not hinder the defensive effort. This point seems to be often overlooked in accidental discharge cases.
There may be some advantages to a lighter trigger but I think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. During an adrenaline surge of a self defense incident, a light trigger can be a serious liability and a heavier trigger does not hinder the defensive effort. This point seems to be often overlooked in accidental discharge cases.
Massad Ayoob argues this point that even if the user of a handgun with a light trigger is so perfrectly trained never to put his finger on the trigger, etc, that a heavier trigger is still warranted because an unscrupulous DA will argue that a SD shooting as actually an AD (light trigger) and get you on manslaughter. I didn't believe him at first until he started pulling out the court cases (man, that guy can reference cases all day - that's one reason I actually am starting to listen to his advise. He actually backs up what he says.).
comn-cents
New member
demigod "fact that you're blinded by muzzle smoke the second you fire the first shot"
I'd like to hear the story on how you are blinded by "muzzle smoke".
I'd like to hear the story on how you are blinded by "muzzle smoke".
I'm not liking the location of that on/off switch. Could be wrong, but I don't think any amount of training can make your index and middle fingers completely independent. There will be situations when trigger slack is taken up on already identified subject, when a shot isn't necessary but white light is, perhaps to determine if the subject is actually armed or to identify anything behind the target.
That said, I don't blame Surefire. The switch itself didn't cause the negligent discharge, there was no equipment failure. The shooter decided that the particular item was what he wanted to use, and in doing so took on the responsibility of using it safely. Unfortunately, local and state police departments don't have the budgets to do even rudimentary test and evaluation, human factors evaluation, or other reliability/safety studies on commercial off-the-shelf equipment their operators may purchase and employ on duty. If they did, issues such as this may be identified in test rather than in the field.
I think we need to define "lighter" and "heavier" trigger. Is 3.5# light, and 5.5# heavy? There's so much variation, and different people have different hand strength. To me, 5.5# is fine. To a 125lb female who is a perfectly competent officer but just has small hands, 5.5# might degrade her accuracy.
That said, I don't blame Surefire. The switch itself didn't cause the negligent discharge, there was no equipment failure. The shooter decided that the particular item was what he wanted to use, and in doing so took on the responsibility of using it safely. Unfortunately, local and state police departments don't have the budgets to do even rudimentary test and evaluation, human factors evaluation, or other reliability/safety studies on commercial off-the-shelf equipment their operators may purchase and employ on duty. If they did, issues such as this may be identified in test rather than in the field.
I think we need to define "lighter" and "heavier" trigger. Is 3.5# light, and 5.5# heavy? There's so much variation, and different people have different hand strength. To me, 5.5# is fine. To a 125lb female who is a perfectly competent officer but just has small hands, 5.5# might degrade her accuracy.
How about whatever comes stock with the gun? Glocks are standard 5.5-6#. Frankly, I can't see anyone on a police force not being able to master a 8# trigger with good training. 8#s is about what a very nicely tuned defensive revolver is, IMO and as long as the action is smooth, that's very workable, IMO.
So glad to see this thread.
I step on a lot of experts toes when I object to lights on guns, long or short, because the experts wax eloquent about how you can light up your target without actually pointing at your target...all theoretical, of course.
I cannot bring myself to point a weapon at anyone, middle of the night or otherwise, that hasn't brought the possibility of causing me death or great bodily harm my way.
So I give up some reaction time knowingly. I am at a disadvantage because I am reacting to another person's actions.
I do my best to accommodate for this by practicing regularly and going to training courses to hone my skills. But I would rather be shot by a bad guy than negligently shoot an innocent person.
I step on a lot of experts toes when I object to lights on guns, long or short, because the experts wax eloquent about how you can light up your target without actually pointing at your target...all theoretical, of course.
I cannot bring myself to point a weapon at anyone, middle of the night or otherwise, that hasn't brought the possibility of causing me death or great bodily harm my way.
So I give up some reaction time knowingly. I am at a disadvantage because I am reacting to another person's actions.
I do my best to accommodate for this by practicing regularly and going to training courses to hone my skills. But I would rather be shot by a bad guy than negligently shoot an innocent person.
Maybe I worded that poorly...
After one shot from my pistol with a tac light mounted, the reflection of the light off of the muzzle smoke almost completely obscures the target for a second or two.
Not a big deal for range practice. But if I were in a real fight and needed to shoot, I'd like to be able to see who I'm shooting at. Especially since real life threats don't stand still like range targets.
Having a hand held light that I can move independently of the bore reduces the smoke screen effect a little bit in my experience. I like to shoot using the SureFire method.
comn-cents
New member
That is interesting. I've shot hundred of rounds with a light mounted on my gun and have never had this happen. Are you shooting cheap reloads or Wolf that create a lot of smoke? Even when shooting wwb I've never had this happen.
The other thing I hate about shooting with a tac light on a pistol is that the light recoils off target with the weapon. I know it's just a split second, but it's annoying and distracting to me.
The third thing I hate is that if you're trying to use momentary light pulses, you have to reacquire the activation switch... which is another distraction. Of course if you're constant on, that's not an issue. But I may not want the light left on.
This doesn't happen with a hand held using the surefire method. I'm not trying to sell an idea or anything. I'm just giving my opionon on why I don't like pistol mounted lights. I'm more comfortable separating the light manipulation and the firearm completely when it comes to pistol shooting... even if I have to shoot one handed.
The third thing I hate is that if you're trying to use momentary light pulses, you have to reacquire the activation switch... which is another distraction. Of course if you're constant on, that's not an issue. But I may not want the light left on.
This doesn't happen with a hand held using the surefire method. I'm not trying to sell an idea or anything. I'm just giving my opionon on why I don't like pistol mounted lights. I'm more comfortable separating the light manipulation and the firearm completely when it comes to pistol shooting... even if I have to shoot one handed.
Double Naught Spy
New member
As he noted, he worded it a bit funny. However, the problem is very real. We had "gray walls" from the smoke inside a shoot house with no breeze. The smoke hung in the air and the target that was only 8-10 feet distant virtually disappeared.
JohnKSa described the problem in some testing we did at my range as well.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323334&highlight=light
And no, we weren't shooting cheap reloads either, but factory FMJ, TMJ, and even some defensive ammo. {Wh does everyone assume that if something isn't expensive, that it can't be quality?}
Quoting John from the above link...
Changed the location of the light switch? under stress this can be bad. The titanic was sunk because of this. The wheel man was just off the steamships, the wheel turned the other way than the titanic or so I have read. Guy turned into that ice burg, oops, hate it when that happens.
A gal LEO shot a guy, she said she thought it was her taser she pulled, oops guy died.
Accidents can be avoided.
A gal LEO shot a guy, she said she thought it was her taser she pulled, oops guy died.
Accidents can be avoided.
A few years ago a deputy killed a young man after stopping him for riding a dirt bike without a license. The deputy had chased the guy because he knew he didn't have the license, when the kid wrecked the dirt bike the deputy blew his head off, well, what was left remained in the helmet anyway.
He said he shot him in the face while trying to turn off his laser sight!!!!!!!!!
The deputy was cleared of any wrong doing:barf:
I feel the deputy murdered the kid and that is all there is to it!
He said he shot him in the face while trying to turn off his laser sight!!!!!!!!!
The deputy was cleared of any wrong doing:barf:
I feel the deputy murdered the kid and that is all there is to it!
comn-cents
New member
Double Naught Spy "Wh does everyone assume that if something isn't expensive, that it can't be quality?}"
I didn't say inexpensive! I said cheap RELOADS or WOLF!
I even mentioned shooting WWB, about as cheap as it gets. I shot indoors often and have never experienced this.
I didn't say inexpensive! I said cheap RELOADS or WOLF!
I even mentioned shooting WWB, about as cheap as it gets. I shot indoors often and have never experienced this.
CapeCodShooter
New member
I don't like weapon-mounted flashlights for the reasons already mentioned here. But more than that, I don't like BS stories, and this sure seems like one of them. He couldn't tell the difference between his flashlight switch and his trigger? Can anyone really be that stupid? Don't tell me about the "heat of the moment." There was no "moment" -- the dead guy was unarmed.
It seems to me that the officer panicked, shot an unarmed man, and is making up an excuse. It makes me long for the good old days, when every street cop in New York City carried a drop gun for these special occasions.
It seems to me that the officer panicked, shot an unarmed man, and is making up an excuse. It makes me long for the good old days, when every street cop in New York City carried a drop gun for these special occasions.
Great Thread! A few thoughts...
I looked at the picture in post #15 by Blue Steel. After reading the article, and researching the light on the SureFire website,
I was ALARMED at how easy it would be to pull the trigger when trying to turn on the light!
The officer stated that:
Now, I am not an LEO and never have been. I am not CCW since Riverside County California requires you to have a restraining order against someone who is actively threatening you with a viable death threat before they will issue a CCW permit. So, this argument applies to me, at home, in a home defense scenario.
What I take away is:
1. No weapon mounted flashlight. An AD/ND is too likely for my level of training. I will use a hand held light. To wit, a few days ago I was out in the front yard at 3 AM with my dogs when they started growling a something to my right in the shadows. I quickly brought my hand held flashlight up in the direction they were growling and pushed the momentary switch. I instantly spotlighted the neighbor kid’s girlfriend walking across their driveway to get to her car. This only took a flash of light not much longer than taking a picture, but I quickly knew there was no threat and calmed down the dogs. Had that been a weapon mounted light, I would not only have spotlighted her, but covered her with my weapon. Can anyone say “assault with a deadly weapon”? So a handheld light is for me. By the way, I was legal in carrying on my own property.
2. I will keep my Crimson Trace laser grips on my SD/HD pistol. A normal grip activates the laser. In order to not be seen projecting the beam all over the place, I place my trigger finger in front of the laser, thus blocking the beam. Even if my grip is strong enough to activate the switch this is not seen as a red line pointing to me from around the corner or across the room. When I identify a threat (with the hand held flashlight), the trigger finger will move to the trigger and the beam will project to the target. Thus allowing quick “sight” acquisition and an accurate shot. Although this pistol is a Bersa Thunder 380, it is Double Action on the first shot and Single Action for all follow up shots. I believe this will help prevent an AD/ND on the first shot. Of course using the finger blocking the laser technique should also ensure this. Too bad the Bersa Thunder 9mm is not legal in California.
3. My 9mm is SAO. This is probably a bad idea for SD/HD as an AD/ND is more likely.
So, there you have a noobee’s opinion on what I take away from this discussion. YMMV!
I looked at the picture in post #15 by Blue Steel. After reading the article, and researching the light on the SureFire website,
I was ALARMED at how easy it would be to pull the trigger when trying to turn on the light!
The officer stated that:
So to activate the light you have to push the button on the side of the light at the front of the trigger guard. In the heat of the moment, with adrenalin pumping, it would be easy to use a little too much force and after hitting the switch have your finger slap the trigger! Study the picture carefully and you will see this also!
Now, I am not an LEO and never have been. I am not CCW since Riverside County California requires you to have a restraining order against someone who is actively threatening you with a viable death threat before they will issue a CCW permit. So, this argument applies to me, at home, in a home defense scenario.
What I take away is:
1. No weapon mounted flashlight. An AD/ND is too likely for my level of training. I will use a hand held light. To wit, a few days ago I was out in the front yard at 3 AM with my dogs when they started growling a something to my right in the shadows. I quickly brought my hand held flashlight up in the direction they were growling and pushed the momentary switch. I instantly spotlighted the neighbor kid’s girlfriend walking across their driveway to get to her car. This only took a flash of light not much longer than taking a picture, but I quickly knew there was no threat and calmed down the dogs. Had that been a weapon mounted light, I would not only have spotlighted her, but covered her with my weapon. Can anyone say “assault with a deadly weapon”? So a handheld light is for me. By the way, I was legal in carrying on my own property.
2. I will keep my Crimson Trace laser grips on my SD/HD pistol. A normal grip activates the laser. In order to not be seen projecting the beam all over the place, I place my trigger finger in front of the laser, thus blocking the beam. Even if my grip is strong enough to activate the switch this is not seen as a red line pointing to me from around the corner or across the room. When I identify a threat (with the hand held flashlight), the trigger finger will move to the trigger and the beam will project to the target. Thus allowing quick “sight” acquisition and an accurate shot. Although this pistol is a Bersa Thunder 380, it is Double Action on the first shot and Single Action for all follow up shots. I believe this will help prevent an AD/ND on the first shot. Of course using the finger blocking the laser technique should also ensure this. Too bad the Bersa Thunder 9mm is not legal in California.
3. My 9mm is SAO. This is probably a bad idea for SD/HD as an AD/ND is more likely.
So, there you have a noobee’s opinion on what I take away from this discussion. YMMV!
warrior poet
New member
I do not use a weapon mounted light b/c it gives away my position. I prefer to hold my good ol' Maglite (which makes a good club if I need it, BTW) at arm's length in my off hand so I can scan the room with a flick of the wrist.
It is fast, and if the BG shoots at the light before I can take a shot, it minimizes the chances of my getting shot, since he's aiming over 2 1/2 feet from my center of mass. My grandpa taught this to me; he learned it in WWII.
If the difference between life and death can be measured in tenths of a second, why complicate things for a shooter? KISS. It protects your life and the lives of those you don't NEED to shoot.
It is fast, and if the BG shoots at the light before I can take a shot, it minimizes the chances of my getting shot, since he's aiming over 2 1/2 feet from my center of mass. My grandpa taught this to me; he learned it in WWII.
If the difference between life and death can be measured in tenths of a second, why complicate things for a shooter? KISS. It protects your life and the lives of those you don't NEED to shoot.