Gun MFR shield law passed by Congress.

Yes, and what I was saying is that I see no basis on which this could be used to argue for us having to have gun owner insurance. Gun owner insurance, like car owner insurance, would not protect us from the civil financial fallout of criminal action. The insurance companies specific circumscribe that in the poiicies, as I understand it.

I think that if someone stole your car, drove it drunk, and deliberately ran down his ex-wife, your insurance company would laugh at you if you asked them to pay.


-blackmind
 
I asked this before:
"Would you please clarify what line of argument you think would lead to the conclusion that we would end up having to buy gun insurance before we could purchase them?"


For further clarification, "Would you please clarify what line of argument BASED ON THIS DEVELOPMENT you think would lead to the conclusion that we would end up having to buy gun insurance before we could purchase them?

I mean, the argument could be made indepent of this situation at any time. What is it about the passage of a protection from frivolous gun suits that you think will precipitate the call for gun owners to have insurance?

-blackmind
 
As of the Friday issue of The Palm Beach Post, the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act has passed both chambers of Congress and will be sent to an enthusiastic President to be signed into law!! :D


Of course, Denis Henigan of HCI is pledging to fight tooth and nail to prevent the law from taking effect. I doubt he will be successful, but I really hope that there is not a delay, or some sort of injunction to delay the law taking effect.

Just imagine it, folks. No more having to worry about the next scumbag lawyer bringing a b.s. case before a jury raised on "Boston Legal"... In fact, just imagine the relief of gun manufacturers that are currently being sued, that will now be able to stop bleeding millions of dollars to defend these cases!

It was all of us who pushed for the law that made this happen to protect them. I wonder if the gun companies might throw a bunch of stuff on sale for a while, to thank us. ;)

I know for sure that if they put HKs or GLOCKS or Para-Ordnances on sale half price, I'd stock up on at least one or two... :)


-blackmind
 
Yesterday, 07:22 PM #16
Rebar
Senior Member


Join Date: 09-09-2004
Location: MA
Posts: 217 And yet some folks here say that there is no difference between democrats and republicans. Pretty foolish thing to say now, eh?
__________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"
-Sigmund Freud
"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out-right ban, picking up every one of them... 'Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in'"
-Senator Dianne Feinstein

Those must be the same ones always complaining about the NRA never doing anything.
 
I wouldn't celebrate too much.

The armor-piercing bullet study will bite us in the arse when it's determined that any rifle bullet can pierce soft body armor.

The trigger lock portion is the first step in requiring use.

So much for passing a clean bill. Thank you NRA for so accurately representing the views of the American gun owner.:barf:

And yet some folks say there is no difference between democrats and republicans. Pretty foolish thing to say now, eh?

The difference between democans and republikrats is the speed of their march down the road to tyranny. The democrats are marching at flanking speed, the republicans are on a more relaxed stroll. They are BOTH headed in the same direction.

Reread my post about the poison pills passed in this law and explain how this is a win for us. We didn't win, we've been set up for something sinister.
 
The armor-piercing bullet study will bite us in the arse when it's determined that any rifle bullet can pierce soft body armor.
I have the opposite opinion; I think such a study will open many people's eyes to the hypocrisy of claims about "evil" guns and "bad" bullets.

The guy I work for is not pro- or anti-gun - he is just generally clueless about firearms. He owns his great grandfather's 30-30 which he views as a benign "cowboy rifle" and was amazed to learn that it shot basically the same size bullet as the .30-06 which he views as a super-powerful rifle. He was also amazed that the M16 shoots a bullet that is essentially the same diameter as the .22 which he views as a near-toy rifle. With only a tiny bit of education, he no longer swallows the anti-gun lies about "evil" guns.
 
So much for passing a clean bill. Thank you NRA for so accurately representing the views of the American gun owner.

I honestly think that the amendments are just part of the normal give and take of th REAL world, probably necessary to get the bill through. I know, none of us in our little fantasy libertarian internet world like it, but that is the way it is.

Once it is established in a year or two that the sky is not falling because of this bill, it will probably be possible to revisit these two items and make sure they do no damage. I don't like them, and vigilance is in order, but I won't do my chicken-little dance over them either.
 
Over at the Volokh Conspiracy, Dave Kopel wrote an interesting piece on the passage of this legislation:

Congress Bans Abusive Anti-Gun Lawsuits:
David Kopel.

At approximately noon, eastern time, the House of Representatives voted to pass S. 397, 283-144. The bill, known as the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act," has been endorsed by the White House, and now goes to the President for his signature.

The bill is the culmination a decade of tort reform work, aimed at addressing the problem of abusive lawsuits against gun manufacturers. The bill is an excellent exercise of the congressional power over interstate commerce, for precisely the purpose for which Congress was originally granted that power: the billis necessary and proper to stop local governments from interfering with interstate commerce, including by attempting to use a verdict in a single state court to impose national firearms controls which have been rejected by Congress and by all state governments.

S. 397 is also a proper exercise of Congressional power under section 5 of the 14th Amendment, to prevent local governments, including local courts, from infringing the Second Amendment rights (and the parallel state constitutional rights in 44 states) which are guaranteed to all law-abiding Americans.

In addition, the bill is also a necessary and proper exercise of the Congressional war power, because the civilian firearms industry is now, and always has been, essential to the production of firearms for the military. Without a robust civilian firearms industry, manufacturers who had to produce only for a military or police market would have to charge much higher prices, and would innovate far less. Almost every gun ever used by the U.S. military was originally developed for the civilian market. Accordingly, the Department of Defense stated that is "strongly supports" S. 397 because the bill "would help safeguard our national security by limiting unnecessary lawsuits against an industry that plays a critical role in meeting the procurement needs of our men and women in uniform."

Thirty-four states had already enacted their own laws to prohibit such suits, but Congressional action was necessary to ensure that a single court in one of the hold-out states did not attempt to destroy the U.S. firearms industry, or to impose the will of a single judge as a national system of firearms restrictions.

The Brady Center, the instigator of the abusive suits, has already expressed its intention to fight the new federal law in court. Significantly, no court anywhere in the United States has ever ruled in favor of similar challenges to the state statutes restricting abusive lawsuits against Second Amendment rights.

The Senate added two unrelated items to S. 397, both of which have caused concern among some Second Amendment activists:

First, the bill increases the already severe mandatory minimum sentences for use of armor-piercing ammunition in a violent or drug trafficking crime. Mandatory minimums are generally a bad idea, but since actual armor-piercing ammunition, as defined by federal law, is very rare, the practical effect of the new sentences will be very small.

Second, the bill requires all licensed firearms dealers to include a locking mechanism with each handgun they sale. Almost every American manufacturer already includes a lock (either an internal lock or, more commonly, a cable lock or trigger lock), with every new gun.

Accordingly, the main effect of S. 397's lock provision will be to force sellers of used handguns to raise their price by several dollars to provide customers an item that the customer may not need. (For example, the customer may already own a gun safe, or may plan to keep the handgun always ready for self-defense, so that it should not be locked up.)

The bill also provides civil immunity for persons who use locking devices. There have been a few state court cases in which guns were effectively treated as ultra-hazardous products, and gun owners whose guns were stolen and used in a crime were found civilly liable, even though their guns had been stored in a safe.

Both of the extra provisions have slippery slope risks: Senator Kennedy and a significant number of Senators favor expanding the definition of "armor-piercing" ammunition so as to include the vast majority of conventional rifle ammunition. And several states have enacted dangerous laws which require handguns to be locked up, and thus inaccessible for emergency self-defense.

However, the future dangers of slippery slopes are far outweighed by the immediate threat posed by abusive lawsuits. On the whole, S. 397 is an immense victory for constitutional rights.

For background on the abusive lawsuit issue, you may wish to read some of the ten articles I've written on the subject, including the 1995 Seton Hall Legislative Journal article which argued that courts should protect the Second Amendment from abusive lawsuits, just as they protected the First Amendment from abusive lawsuits in New York Times v. Sullivan. But even better than judicially-created protection is legislatively-created protection. Today's bi-partisan vote is a tremendous victory for the constitutional rights of citizens, and is the result of Congress exercising its powers for precisely the pro-freedom reasons for which those powers were granted to Congress by the American people.
 
The difference between democans and republikrats is the speed of their march down the road to tyranny.
Ah yes, the melodious sounds of the utopian anarcho-libertarian fantasy.

Some of us work in the real world for real, achievable goals. When the libertarians get a majority in the house and senate, you can go ahead and strive for your utopia.
 
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