Gun debate rallies are full of surprises (MMM organizer has DUI record)

dZ

New member
Gun debate rallies are full of surprises

10/06/00

Not everything turns out the way it is planned.

This week's First Monday 2000 rally in Bethlehem, we were told in advance, was
not for gun control. "It's just antiviolence," rally organizer Helen Ruch told me.

That's not the way it turned out; the rally was largely devoted to antigun rhetoric
on signs and in speeches.

Ruch had hoped 1,500 would join her, but 70 showed up to march across
Bethlehem's Fahy Bridge. That dwindled to 40 for her postmarch rally at
Moravian College.

An anti-antigun turnout, on the other hand, surprised even the most
ardent National Rifle Association members. More than 1,000 foes of gun
control lined one side of Fahy Bridge as Ruch's 70 demonstrators marched
across on the other side, then more than 2,000 showed up at Bethlehem's
Rose Garden for a rally to support the Second Amendment.

Another surprise, given the passions on both sides, was that nearly all
these people were very polite.

At Moravian, following some truly dreadful music, Ruch hailed her
"rally to attempt to end gun violence." She said there are conflicting
numbers about how many people are killed by guns, but "one victim a
day is too many.…Our children do not feel safe and that's not fair."

Then began the awfullest music you can imagine, so I bailed out to go see
how the other rally was doing.

The pro-gun rally focused almost entirely on why gun control is bad. It was
argued that crime increased after cities like New York, Washington and Los
Angeles imposed severe restrictions on citizens carrying guns, giving criminals
free rein. Other arguments were that things like gun locks and waiting periods
similarly leave people defenseless.

All that may be true, but it seems to me that if you have 2,000 zealots in one spot,
you should not waste time trying to convince them of what they already intractably
believe.

Instead, tell them how to gain political support, pool resources or persuade those
not yet in your camp, including news media people, many of whom unabashedly
support those who seek to dilute the Bill of Rights.

My sentiments have long been aligned against gun control, mainly because it
abrogates part of the Bill of Rights, but also because much of the impetus comes
from hysteria.

Last year, I questioned the hysteria over gun violence in schools while there was
far less outcry over violence caused by drunks. This week, figures supplied by
Mothers Against Drunk Driving said drunken drivers killed 15,935 in 1998.
Handgun Control, a Washington group that pushes gun control, said there were
12,102 homicides by firearms in 1998.

Neither figure is heartening, but the drunks are outdoing the gunslingers
when it comes to deadly violence.

And that brings us back to Ruch and a final surprise.

Noting her view that it's not fair for children to feel unsafe because of
guns, I asked her Thursday if she thinks it's also unfair that they feel
unsafe because of the far more serious dangers from drunken drivers.

"What does that have to do with anything?" she replied.

I told her it has to do with her drunken driving charge.

"I have no comment," she said.

That's OK, because Lehigh County Court records commented plenty.

They say Ruch was charged with public drunkenness (later dropped), driving
under the influence, and improper "emerging onto roadway" in 1996. "Driver was
given sobriety tests of balance and walking and failed all tests. Effects of alcohol
were extreme," said an Allentown police report. The report said her breath test
registered 0.162.

The records say that in 1997, Ruch agreed to enter the Accelerated Rehabilitative
Disposition program. Typically, when ARD is successfully completed, DUI
records can be expunged.

In any event, it seems to me that if those marching across Fahy Bridge
genuinely want to curb deadly violence, they can start by demanding
tougher sanctions for drunken drivers.


Contact Paul Carpenter

610-820-6176

paul.carpenter@mcall.com
http://www.mcall.com/html/columns/cpc/b_pg001_e15surprises.htm
 
Oops! ;) A three-pointer for sure.

Hat's off to youse guys for turning out the numbers that you did. Besides the actual political work that need be done (alas!), turing out 10K at every attempted violation of our rights would start to send a real message methinks.

Amazing hypocracy from the gun-banners in many instances - from DUIs to personal assaults on TRT members - these people are dangerous & we need a movement to ban them. ;)
 
Bull****. Thre pointer my rosy red ass. The woman's DUI has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment debate. IMHO this was a cheap shot ad hominem attack.

One definition of "civilization" is the ability to be fair to your enemies. If you have a legitimate argument against this woman's position, and there are plenty, bring them on, but don't stoop to that level of pettiness.
 
So driving drunk is "pettiness"?

Who said we had to fight fair? Turn their own arguments against them, and that's not fair?

The argument was "safety for the children". I think Drunk Driving is a relavent argument.

David, I hope you are being sarcastic...

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
If she is going to ask other adults to be responsible for their actions, she needs to be responsible for hers.
 
I am not being sarcastic.

I am not condoning drunk driving.

I DO think we should "fight fair".

I still think dragging this woman's personal history on an unrelated matter into the debate is a cheap shot.

On a matter of principle such as this, I really don't care if anyone agrees with me.
 
There is no such thing as "a fair fight."

She's a lawbreaker (criminal?) and hypocrite and deserves what she got.

You enter the public fray and you get what is coming.
 
David Scott: In the post that originated this thread, Helen Ruch allegedly stated that the rally was not for gun control, but that "It's just antiviolence."

Considering that the death toll due to drunken drivers (people) is greater than that blamed on guns (inanimate objects),I'd say drunken driving causes a LOT of violence.

So, by Helen Ruch's own alleged "antiviolence" agenda, bringing up her reckless endangerment of innocents is perfectly appropriate.

And as for "fighting fair," I say that in a debate, THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS FAIR!! "Unfairness" only enters into the picture if lies are used, and the MMM's are all too guilty of that.

In any case, there's an ancient saying that goes something like "To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself." Also, "A person who lives in a glass house should not throw stones." If the facts - not lies, no innuendo, but good, solid, documented facts - discredit your enemy, GREAT!
 
By her driving very drunk, she shows a complete disdain for her fellow beings. She could of destroyed a school bus full of highschool kids returning from an away game.

Her drunk driving potential for destruction exceeds the magazine capacity of an assault rifle.

Her deliberate action is criminal, yet she would banish us based on our potential for criminal acts?

i am not a criminal

dZ
 
No fight is fair, but considering the position we're in , we HAVE to make ourselves look as best we can. "They" can make all the cheap shots they want at us, but when we do it, it considered the "last desperate attempt before drowning." They don't see us in a fair light and never will. The best thing to do is to keep your chin up and not stoop to the level of finger pointing, even though the hypocritical view of Ruch is disgusting.

Dr. Martin Luther King jr. started peaceful protests while a flurry of name calling and violence went around him on all sides. Nobody could question his peaceful nature or his commitment to seeing the right thing done. In the end, the hate mongers were seen for what they were.

We can't ignore those who want to see us disperse and fade away, but we can come out on top by not assimilating their stupid ways.
 
Runt,

Hank's point. They want safety (so they say) for the children. This then becomes more than just the abusive use of guns.

If they are going to be inconsistant, let's call them on it.

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
I've got to admit, I think hauling out her DWI record was a bit of a cheap shot.

I also think that gun owners have been 'fighting fair' since 1968. Where has it gotten us?

LawDog
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by runt_of_the_litter:
Dr. Martin Luther King jr. started peaceful protests while a flurry of name calling and violence went around him on all sides. Nobody could question his peaceful nature or his commitment to seeing the right thing done. In the end, the hate mongers were seen for what they were.
[/quote]

I wonder if the reason why Ghandi and MLK succeeded wasn't related to the being the carrot while the more violent alternatives trying for the same goals were the stick. The Brits must have preferred dealing with Ghandi to another Sepoy re-enactment, in the US Black Panthers and Malcolm X were scarier alternatives.

We don't really present a concurrent scary alternative...and they can't see far enough in the future to wonder about that other way coming up later.
 
I DO think we should "fight fair".

... and LOSE.

Just like we are.

It's time for the gloves to come off. Ad Hominem begets Ad Hominem in my book. Wanna play dirty? Okay, let's go....

As long as WE live by one set of rules and THEY live by another (looser) set, WE WILL LOSE. No rational individual can (IMO) doubt the truth of that statement.

"Take the high road..." (straight to hell).

------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
 
Her whole reason for being is to help save lives and prevent horrible accidents from happening yet she's been found guilty of drunk driving which is responsible for more deaths than guns.

It's unbelievably hyprocritical. Drunk driving is a careless act that endangers the lives of others. This is her argument against your average gun owner.

Bringing up defaulting on a loan or even embezzlement would be a cheap shot, but not this.
 
I do agree that Ruch should just shut up, the hypocrite that she is. And yes, we are going to be bombarded when we play fair, and even more so when we play dirty. It all depends what level you want to take it to.

"You have a DUI, and shouldn't be b*****g about guns when you could have plowed over a school bus full of kids."

"Well,runt,you have two speeding tickets, and could have plowed over the same bus."

And it's all downhill from there.

The reason why we shouldn't take on a Malcolm X approach is because that is exactly what the Moms are waiting for: "Aha, see how they're acting NOW? That's why we should take their guns away!"
 
Aw, do you have to be the voice of reason again? I had my bayonet fixed and all...now you tell me that the Galipoli re-enactment has been cancelled?

Actually, I am all for winning hearts and minds. Just that the opposition seems blissfully ignorant of the backup solution.
 
And we all know what happens when deer run across the road.

To all the Million Moms who want all our guns taken away: You might as well staple a big sign on your butts that says: Rape me. I'm unarmed.
 
.162% BAC...that's over twice the legal limit in Kalif.

Let's see now.
A .44 mag, 240 gr bullet, going 1200 FPS has how much energy?

But that pales in comparison to a 4000 lb. car going 65 MPH driven by a drunk. I just wonder how many people she almost killed or injured when she drove past them while she was drunk?
 
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