Gun Control in France...obviously...not working

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This comes up a lot. But the CCWer saving the day in this type of situation is a pipe dream.

Now I know the numbers have changed in the last couple of years but, the Texas DPS estimated that about 1 in 300 people might actually have a license; couple that with the fact that most people who have a license don't actually carry. A concert venue or sporting venue probably could be counted a zero probability that a citizen is armed.

The issue is that terrorists were able to move guns and explosives around the city. This is in a country that Americans are lead to believe has gun control.


One of our big media news commentator said during the coverage "this is the price of a free and open society" I don't remember which one tho, I was flipping back and fourth.

I don't go to big venues any more, no opening night movies, no concerts, busy malls. I carry 100% of the time, but I know that there's little I could do in a situation such as Paris.

This is not a gun control problem. This is not an armed citizen problem. It is a terrorist problem.
 
This comes up a lot. But the CCWer saving the day in this type of situation is a pipe dream.

I disagree. It is an empirical question. Can Timmy Taurus 85 take on a squad - maybe not?

Sitting a restaurant with 5 skilled shooters, all carrying full sized semis and extra mags - I do that a lot. That would be a different story.

I certainly think a reasonably trained CHL could assist in a one or two person attack. By extension, would the one policeman we see standing around as a guard be able to handle a squad. Probably not but should he or she go away? No.

I do agree that the average CHL is undertrained or might be the person that talks guns and ammo and never learns how to really use them. That's sad.
 
They were killing people anyway and would use the vests in any circumstance. So if they got shot, maybe they couldn't pull the switch?
For that you would probably need a head shot unlikely. I would not be against more people being armed, but if that was the case they would just change their tactits. Doint blame gun control blame the terrorists. People here were armed the terrorists just made sure they did not get a chance to use them. There has being terrorism here all my life i have some incite into the way they operate.
Fact Sheet on the conflict in and about Northern Ir
eland

Every day of the year marks the anniversary of some
one’s death
as a result of conflict in and about Northern Irela
nd.
3,725 people were killed as a result of the conflic
t.
Approximately 47,541 people were injured.

There were 36,923 shootings.
16,209 bombings were conducted
.

My guess would be dozens, scores even. But you won't hear about it in the media.
I think it would be head line news.
 
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The natural God-given right of self protection

Whenever I see terms such as "sensible" gun control actions that only addresses action on firearms and ammunition, I'm reminded of one of my real life experiences. .... :)

I have a friend whose wife, owned eight cats. Well one of the cats had a bad trait of wanting to beat up on the rest of the normally docile cats. the situation got so bad that they decided to de-claw the cat. After the procedure the cat continued his aggressive behavior. It did not take long before the other cats realized that the strikes didn't hurt any more and soon paid him no mind. The de-clawed cat also noted the difference. You'd think that life was better for all but that was not the case. Gradually the other cats started being more aggressive and attacking the de-clawed cat. He had nothing to defend himself with and tried to hide. They finally had to get rid of the de-clawed cat and now life was better for all; well, except for the declawed cat. ...... :)

Be Safe !!!
 
Training is not readily available to the masses. To most folks. $300 for a weekend of training is costly. Many would find $50 a financial burden... I don't think that should take away their right to defend themselves.

I carry a full sized 5"barreled beretta because I can shoot it well and accurately.
I feel I owe that to the public. It's a pain to carry and can be an uncomfortable inconvenience to carry, but I do it because it's reliable, easy to shoot and I can fire it accurately...

I would not carry a pocket gun... I've seen people trying to shoot them and it's almost comical.
 
I agree these attackers have some level of smarts. They are highly driven by success over all else.

What keeps them out of places like Japan is they don't blend in and will be stopped and searched.

What keeps the attacks down in the US is a 2 pronged approach. I honestly think that "big brother" is doing some serious data crunching with passenger lists and passports, etc. The second item is us. Yes, regular old Americans who might carry, might have their eyes open, might be concerned about a group of 6 at the public range....It is the possibility of failure that keeps them on the move.

In the US , you might need 20 to have the same impact before all are shot or taken down. You just need more people to execute here. More people are more recruits and more loose ends.

Now, I'm not saying it can't happen here. I think they are building the numbers, support, mosques, radicals, etc, but it is a harder process.

All that said, I think CCW is not a huge threat until we carry more and breakdown the gun free zones.

Frankly, I'm too far from a gun right now.
 
I would not carry a pocket gun... I've seen people trying to shoot them and it's almost comical.

Boy, I'm not bad with my cw380. Times are nearly as good as my full size 45. Hits on paper plates under 10 yards aren't bad either...hmmm.
 
Many would find $50 a financial burden... I don't think that should take away their right to defend themselves.

Who said the right should be taken away? Not I. I just argue for competence. It's like voting. How many voters really study up, not many. But they should.

As far as pocket guns, I did train up on them. I guess I'm lucky to be able to.

You don't shoot them well if you don't.
 
I agree...

I've been shooting a long time, but feel I could benefit from good training, most would.
Many people buy a gun. Shoot a few cans... Half a box of ammo.... And off they go to face the world
 
Now, I'm not saying it can't happen here. I think they are building the numbers, support, mosques, radicals, etc, but it is a harder process.
You are right it is a lot easier for these type of attacks to take place in europe than America. Some of that is down to european politicians ant their policy on free movement across europe.

The Schengen Agreement led to the creation of Europe's borderless Schengen Area. The treaty was signed on 14 June 1985 by five of the ten member states of the then European Economic Community near the town of Schengen in Luxembourg but was only partially implemented until 1995. It proposed the gradual abolition of border checks at the signatories' common borders. Measures proposed included reduced speed vehicle checks which allowed vehicles to cross borders without stopping, allowing residents in border areas freedom to cross borders away from fixed checkpoints and the harmonisation of visa policies
 
"How manny terrorist atacks have being stopped in America by armed citizens. ? Anyone that thinks that arming people will stop these atacks are kidding themselves. My toughts are with the victims and their families."

That is exactly the point. How many? We'll never know because it's virtually impossible to quantify what never happened. It's no different than the crimes that never happened because criminals knew there might be armed citizens there to stop it. To suggest that an increase in the number of honest, armed citizens isn't an effective method of stopping or minimizing such carnage as occurred in Paris is a willful misunderstanding of the concept of deterrence.
 
To suggest that an increase in the number of honest, armed citizens isn't an effective method of stopping or minimizing such carnage as occurred in Paris is a willful misunderstanding of the concept of deterrence.

It woint stop or minimizing these type of attacks at best could change the method or location of attack. Anyone that thinks it will is misunderstanding the mindset of these people. As i said i am not against people being armed but thinking it will stop or minimise these type of incidents are kidding themselves. Also using it to push a pro-gun or anti-gun view is a bit distasteful at this time.

That is exactly the point. How many? We'll never know because it's virtually impossible to quantify what never happened.
But you can say armed citizens did not stop the attacks that have aready taken place in America.
 
You do not need thousands of dollars in training to prepare yourself for a situation. You can do it yourself without the use of a gun guru by following several common sense factors, and running the scenarios over again and again in your mind until they become ingrained. Firearms proficiency, on the other hand, requires constant practice. The mind set is key here. Observe, observe, observe. If anything seems out of place orient yourself to best be able to confront a threat successfully, which includes noting areas of concealment, movement, cover, and most importantly observation. Practice this constantly wherever you go, dept. stores, restaurants, etc. It will eventually become second nature to you. In a situation such as the restaurant, there is in reality very little you can do, for the shock factor will most likely incapacitate you for up to a minute(which can be an eternity) or more after which use of a firearm will probably prove useless. Best you can do here, if you wake up unharmed, is to have kept current with your first aid training and assist those whom you can help until EMT units arrive. You do have to recognize the situation you are in. In something like a robbery in a public place, unless threat of life in imminent, it is best to comply. Human life trumps loss of property easily. In all situations, find cover/ concealment if possible; play dead if you have to. It is of utmost importance here to take a few deep breaths and assess the situation. Your senses have been assaulted by the sounds of gunfire, explosions. Your adrenaline is pumping at 110% and part of your brain is telling you that this cannot be happening. You are scared to death. If you cannot overcome the fear, then stay where you are and let the assault come to you, then react as best you can. Your death would solve nothing. Once some semblance of coherency has returned to your brain, note the direction of gunfire. Observe the location of shooters if you can, covertly if possible( around corners, low) If it is possible, move as close as you can to your target to assure a reasonable chance of success. Remember you're still pumped up on adrenaline and your hands are shaking beyond belief. You should have already tried to breathe normally and calm yourself down. If you do manage to get yourself in an advantageous position, take a couple of deep breaths and take your shots. If you do manage to take down a gunman and there are more, upgun. If you have a pistol and the other BGs have AK's then that puts you at a distinct disadvantage. Grab his rifle, check the mag, grab any other mags you can and move to some point where you do not need to check your 6, which you have to constantly do. Shoot, move, shoot move. You have a slight advantage in the first few seconds because they don't know where you are and you are shooting from behind some type of concealment. Make those first few shots count. You are most likely doing this amid bursts of gunfire. so your aimed single/double shots will not necessarily register in their minds until one of them actually sees another go down, and that automatically gives you your next target. A few other major things to remember in such a situation; resist the urge to flee toward the exits. The aggressors in this scenario seek body count and their attention will be focused on the largest group of people, with possibly one performing overwatch. He should be primary initial target, but that depends on your location, access. They will not be shooting at something they cannot see and it will surprise them, at least initially, to encounter resistance. Do not underestimate your opponent, but by the same token, do not overestimate him either. He is in all likelihood, a common foot soldier and not endowed with an overabundance of brains. Face the fact, you could die trying, but in a similar situation you could die just as easily doing nothing. I carry everywhere I go, even to concerts, etc. and I have never encountered a problem with it, but it has a lot to do with carrying a hard card. I have another person sign an agreement that I am working a protection detail for them, notify those in control of the event, and generally have no problems. It allows me to be at least minimally prepared. Anyone can practice the scenario above in an empty barn, church, even a roped off section of empty field. Of course the location determines if you are capable of using live ammo for this type of training, which I highly discourage. Paintball can give a reasonably realistic scenario. Of course, every situation is different, and it is ultimately up to you to decide whether you want to invest the time to train yourself, and how specifically to engage/not engage in such a situation. Also you must realize that coordinated police reaction is at best 30min. away, and probably longer. Almost every venue will offer concealment; concert halls have seats as do theaters and churches. Restaurants have booths, bars, tables. In open floor concerts you can always choose to be seated on an upper level. As the old saying goes; Keep your head when those around you are losing theirs.
 
Most people I know who own firearms usually go to the range often and have prepared themselves to use it. Those people who carry concealed usually have gone through scenarios and prepared mentally. We may not be the SEAL team but we can throw a wrench into the plans of the attackers. Those of us over 40 realize most of our lives are over. Might as well go out with a bang so to speak.

I went to the movies last night and they hired a bouncer like individual to stand by the ticket booth open carrying. That looks like good security, but anyone with half a brain knows he could easily be taken out. His presence at the theatre created a false sense of security. Just one guy with a gun out in plain sight will not secure that theatre.
 
If you have a CCW on you, you have another potentially lifesaving option, if not, you don't.

The rest is academic.
 
That big bouncer with open carry will just be the first victim in the event of a mass shooting or bombing. There is a big difference between security and the illusion of security.

I was once on a flight, internal US, where a passenger had to be restrained by several members of the crew, including the co-pilot. During the event, a federal Sky Marshall, who I knew from a gov't training session a couple of years before, sat there and watched the entire thing, taking no action.

After the flight, he said to me, thanks for not saying anything about my status, but my job is to intervene in the event of a highjacking, not a drunk passenger. They should not have allowed the co-pilot to leave the cockpit, his job is to fly the plane.

For all anyone knows, the drunk passenger isn't drunk, and his job was to ferret out any clandestine sky marshals before possible compatriots took over the plane.

Saw him a couple of times more after that on similar flights, I'd joke with him about working for the Bureau of Weights and Measures, he kind of liked that.
 
t woint stop or minimizing these type of attacks at best could change the method or location of attack. Anyone that thinks it will is misunderstanding the mindset of these people. As i said i am not against people being armed but thinking it will stop or minimise these type of incidents are kidding themselves

Exactly - you are sitting at a corner cafe and a suicide bomber lights himself and everyone else up; your gun is not a deterrent who are willing to blow themselves up.
 
...you are sitting at a corner cafe and a suicide bomber lights
himself and everyone else up; your gun is not a deterrent....
Red Herring.

Tell me again where & how 100 of these 128 killings took place.
Tell me again how the ability to fight back would not have been
a major factor in stopping it.



Meanwhile.... politicians we all know and love are still doing their
level-best to disarm everybody -- everybody except the bad guys.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-11-14-23-51-34


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A very low number of Texas residents actually carry.
The percentage of people with permits is pretty low--3%.

The percentage of people with permits who carry actually on their person most of the time is also pretty low--I'd say maybe 10% based on my informal and highly unscientific information gathering.

If you assume that half the people who have permits carry anytime it's legal, then in a group of 150 people in a public place where carry is legal, you might have a couple of people carrying.

I figure the real number is more like 1 person in 300.
 
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