brian33x51
New member
Car analogies have been beat to death. I pretty much turn off anyone who tries that as the car market is a very unique one that usually doesn't properly apply to anything else.
Gun Control Debates
- Thread starter stephen426
- Start date
Having answers is one thing but knowing what they mean is quite another. If you ask an anti-gunner (or anyone else) to define terms he spouts off and he/she looks like a deer caught in headlights of a car, then they are just mindless drones who don't know what they are talking about. Even if you come at it with a different approach, there is a pretty good chance they will simply revert to their parrot like responses.
spacemanspiff
New member
I will debate from time to time, but its a lot less frequent nowadays. The majority of the arguments are coming from those who are incapable of recognizing logic as they only communicate in emotional outbursts. Waste of breath trying to convince those types.
stephen426
New member
Thanks for the well thought out response 44 AMP. I will be sure to use more care in my arguments. I tried to be methodical since many anti-gun people rely more on emotion than reason. I also made sure to post my links so that I was not accused of "making thing us". I know that the ultimate goal of the hard-core anti-gun crowd is an all out ban on gun, even if it comes to confiscation by force.
I don't bother wasting my time or my breath on the hard core anti-gun crowd, but I try to sway those who are open to dialogue. I honestly believe that none of us would be so crass in person if someone very close to us was a victim of these horrific tragedies. Son of Scuba Diver hit it on the head that [nothing will change unless we stop demonizing each other]. Besides, if we work together, there might be a way to figure out some way to reduce mass shootings other than arming everyone. I'm sure many of us take the responsibility of carrying a gun very seriously, but I'm sure all of us have also seen people who are very irresponsible and have no business owning a gun.
@TracerTesterman, thanks for posting that link. I will read all of it when I have time, but what I did read so far will certainly add some very good points.
I don't bother wasting my time or my breath on the hard core anti-gun crowd, but I try to sway those who are open to dialogue. I honestly believe that none of us would be so crass in person if someone very close to us was a victim of these horrific tragedies. Son of Scuba Diver hit it on the head that [nothing will change unless we stop demonizing each other]. Besides, if we work together, there might be a way to figure out some way to reduce mass shootings other than arming everyone. I'm sure many of us take the responsibility of carrying a gun very seriously, but I'm sure all of us have also seen people who are very irresponsible and have no business owning a gun.
@TracerTesterman, thanks for posting that link. I will read all of it when I have time, but what I did read so far will certainly add some very good points.
RangerRich99:
yeah, it was a game changer.
I don't have a built in default behavior to blame the previous admin for all the world's woes, but I thought I had read where federal funds for this program get cut under the previous administration?
Does anyone else remember the same?
yeah, it was a game changer.
I don't have a built in default behavior to blame the previous admin for all the world's woes, but I thought I had read where federal funds for this program get cut under the previous administration?
Does anyone else remember the same?
SonOfScubaDiver
New member
Having gone from being someone who didn't want guns in my house and who also considered most gun owners as gun nuts, to someone who now loves the sport of shooting and sees the value in carrying a gun for self defense, I have had quite a few discussions with friends and others explaining what I've learned. A lot of it has been explaining how and why I made this turnaround. But a lot of it has also been addressing misconceptions I had about gun ownership, and gun owners in general, that many of my friends also have. I've also had more than my share of discussions with gun enthusiasts addressing their misconceptions about people who favor stronger gun control. To date, all of these discussions have remained civil, and I haven't walked away from any of them thinking that I was talking to an unreasonable person.
Much of the time I feel very stuck in the middle. Just as I used to feel pressure to adopt any and all the gun control viewpoints, I now sometimes feel pressure to adopt any and all the pro 2A viewpoints. There seems to be elements of extremism on both sides. But what I've learned is that most of us, on both sides, aren't what we are portrayed to be online or in the news. So, I would encourage all of you to stay open to the idea of talking with the people around you about the issues surrounding guns in this country. Learn how to listen and respond without judging. Learn how to present your point of view without resorting to using terms that only serve to demonize and make enemies out of the people you're discussing these issues with. If right out of the gate you start with the "anti-gunner, you're all out to take my guns from me, crazy liberal" approach, you're only going to run into a brick wall of resistance, and the divide will grow wider.
Much of the time I feel very stuck in the middle. Just as I used to feel pressure to adopt any and all the gun control viewpoints, I now sometimes feel pressure to adopt any and all the pro 2A viewpoints. There seems to be elements of extremism on both sides. But what I've learned is that most of us, on both sides, aren't what we are portrayed to be online or in the news. So, I would encourage all of you to stay open to the idea of talking with the people around you about the issues surrounding guns in this country. Learn how to listen and respond without judging. Learn how to present your point of view without resorting to using terms that only serve to demonize and make enemies out of the people you're discussing these issues with. If right out of the gate you start with the "anti-gunner, you're all out to take my guns from me, crazy liberal" approach, you're only going to run into a brick wall of resistance, and the divide will grow wider.
stephen426
New member
SonOfScubaDiver said:
Thanks for sharing that. Failure to engage in civil, intelligent dialogue just leads to people digging in their heels. Just curious, could you share what finally brought you around? What were some of the most common misconceptions that you held and what arguments persuaded you? Thanks!
Rangerrich99
New member
An article I read said that it was Clinton's administration that defunded it, but that's a bit hazy. Regardless, it was defunded and murder rates gradually climbed back up near previous levels. It has also been tried/is being tried in several other american cities, and the results have been nearly the same as in Boston; it's been dramatically successful, and not one new gun law attached to it.
When people I've talked to don't want to talk about Operation: Ceasefire I know at that point they aren't serious about reducing the gun-related murder rate, they only want to ban guns.
Jim Watson
New member
"If you are afraid of people who own guns, why are you arguing with me?"
brian33x51
New member
It takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. Maximizing the number of good guys with guns is the only common sense answer to the fastest way to deal with bad guys with guns (try to find some way to toss crap like "common sense" back in their faces).
ShootistPRS
New member
"Guns are made to kill people!"
No, none of my guns have ever shot or killed anyone.
"That gun has no peaceful purpose it is a military weapon!"
I use that gun recreationally. I shoot at targets of various sizes and shapes to improve my posture, reflexes and health. The shooting is done on the clock and the winner gets a prize. It's a lot like football but without the violence.
"Guns kill people!"
Not really, people have been killing each other since Adam and Eve had two boys. People kill people with their hands and feet, knives, baseball bats, pipe and cars. More people die in their bathrooms each year than by murderers. More people die in hospitals from non-related complication and infections than by murderers. More people are beaten to death than are killed by rifles including "that" kind of gun.
"We have to do SOMETHING to stop gun violence!"
The only way to stop gun violence is to prosecute the violent offenders. Taking my gun just gives the violent offenders one more victim.
"But guns are used to kill and hurt too many people each year!"
More people use guns to prevent a crime or to stop it than are killed by guns each year. Taking away the guns from law abiding citizens just adds that 1 to three million people to the role of victims. A large majority of the time just drawing your gun stops the criminal behavior and no shots are even fired.
Once in a while you get the truth:
"Guns scare me. I can't trust someone with a gun."
In order to buy a gun you have to go through a criminal background check. You have to go through another even deeper background check to get a concealed carry permit. I would rather be surrounded by people with concealed carry permits than a bunch of people who might be criminals.
No, none of my guns have ever shot or killed anyone.
"That gun has no peaceful purpose it is a military weapon!"
I use that gun recreationally. I shoot at targets of various sizes and shapes to improve my posture, reflexes and health. The shooting is done on the clock and the winner gets a prize. It's a lot like football but without the violence.
"Guns kill people!"
Not really, people have been killing each other since Adam and Eve had two boys. People kill people with their hands and feet, knives, baseball bats, pipe and cars. More people die in their bathrooms each year than by murderers. More people die in hospitals from non-related complication and infections than by murderers. More people are beaten to death than are killed by rifles including "that" kind of gun.
"We have to do SOMETHING to stop gun violence!"
The only way to stop gun violence is to prosecute the violent offenders. Taking my gun just gives the violent offenders one more victim.
"But guns are used to kill and hurt too many people each year!"
More people use guns to prevent a crime or to stop it than are killed by guns each year. Taking away the guns from law abiding citizens just adds that 1 to three million people to the role of victims. A large majority of the time just drawing your gun stops the criminal behavior and no shots are even fired.
Once in a while you get the truth:
"Guns scare me. I can't trust someone with a gun."
In order to buy a gun you have to go through a criminal background check. You have to go through another even deeper background check to get a concealed carry permit. I would rather be surrounded by people with concealed carry permits than a bunch of people who might be criminals.
TracerTesterman
Moderator
What bothers me the most is when you have a reasonable discuss with Gun Control advocates, and at some point they laugh uneasily and say something along the lines of, "Well, no one should have guns. But if things go bad, I want you near me."
"Thanks, you hypocrite."
Shall I procreate for you as well?
"Thanks, you hypocrite."
Shall I procreate for you as well?
An acquaintance said he wouldn't own guns or use them for self-defense because of his personal moral quandary about killing someone, even in self-defense.
I asked him if he would call the police if he were ever in danger and he said that he would. So, I asked, "How is it more moral to call in someone to do your dirty work for you than if you have to do it yourself? If you really believe that all killing is wrong, then you shouldn't call the police when you're in danger unless you can verify ahead of time that they won't use anything other than non-lethal means to rescue you."
SonOfScubaDiver
New member
stephen426--I will try to make this as short as I can. I inherited two guns in 2014 when my father passed away. Didn't want them, didn't like them, but didn't have the heart to get rid of them because they were his. So, I unloaded them, put them in their cases, and locked them up in another case that required a 3 digit code to unlock.
Fast forward to June of last year. I came home from work one morning and found some guy asleep in bed with my youngest daughter, who had decided that it was OK to do such things. I rousted them both out of bed, ordered him to get out of the house, and proceeded to call 911. He ran out of the house as I was being informed by the dispatcher that the one officer on duty that morning was on another call. She told me to call again if he came back.
I came down the stairs and the next thing I knew he was at the back door trying to get back in the house. I called 911 again, only to be told the officer was still on the other call. I remembered about Dad's guns and told the dispatcher that I was going to get my gun. It gets a little fuzzy at this point, but I remember having trouble remembering the 3 digit code for the locked case, and I remember the dispatcher kept talking to me (but I don't remember the conversation). As I was at the point of inserting the magazine into the gun to go shoot this man, who by that time was banging on the door trying to get it open, I was told by the dispatcher that the officer had arrived and to get the gun out of my hand--to set it down. The officer estimated that had he gotten there even one minute later that shots would have already been fired and this creep could very easily be laying in my laundry room or at the back door dead. All of this happened in a matter of maybe five minutes tops. The creep got arrested and is now serving a nine year sentence for doing things with minors adults aren't supposed to be doing.
The first thing this experience taught me is that there is no such thing as safety. It's just a perception--something we take for granted. The truth of the matter is that we can find ourselves in a bad situation in the blink of an eye, without warning. In less than the time it took me to walk down a flight of stairs, what happened in my home went from bad to worse.
The second, and probably the most important thing I learned, is that I knew nothing about shooting a gun. Up to this point, my only experience with guns had been shooting skeet with the men from a church I used to belong to twenty years ago. So, I found an indoor gun range about 35 miles from where I live, and started down this road that has led me to seeing the value of training for self defense purposes. What I didn't know would happen is me falling in love with the sport aspect of shooting. My groupings have gone from 12+ inches wide at 7 yards to maybe 3-4 inches at 25 yards.
Another very important thing I learned is what happens to the human body in high stress situations. To this day I cannot remember the conversation with the dispatcher from the moment I told her I was getting my gun to the moment she told me the officer had arrived. I can, however, remember that I couldn't remember the last digit of my own birthday, 629, to get the case unlocked. My fine motor skills disappeared while trying to get the case unlocked, and I also had trouble handling the gun once I got it out. Even knowing which way the magazine went into the gun had me fumbling with it. I have heard many menfolk talk a whole lotta crap about what they'd do or how they'd react in a situation that called for the use of a gun, but I learned that it's just that--talking a whole lotta crap. The truth of the matter is that, without a lot of practice to develop muscle memory, you aren't going to be the gunman you think you are.
So, basically, just sharing that whole experience, with more detail than I've given you, has gone a long way to show my friends that there is value in having a means of defense. Even if they never have to use it. Even if they don't develop a love for shooting in general. Owning a gun, and learning how to use it properly, will go a long way in overcoming that fear we all feel when it comes to something violent happening to us or our loved ones. It doesn't eliminate that fear, but it does give one a stronger sense of confidence in being able to survive an attack that could happen at any moment.
So, really, all I've been trying to say is that we just need to talk to folks and share with them our own stories--our own reasons why we have guns. If it's purely for sport, then tell folks what you love about the sport of shooting. If it's for self defense, then explain to them how you feel about the dangers in the world we live in. It doesn't have to be an argument or even a debate. It can be as simple as this is why I do this and this is what I've learned because of it.
I've got friends who, for various reasons, have never considered getting a gun that now want me to take them to the range to let them shoot my guns. How cool is that? Whether from curiosity, or from being able to see how much I love getting those tight groups, or maybe just to confront their fear of guns (I'm finding out that a lot of the objections to guns stems from a fear of them), at least half a dozen of my friends want to see what it's all about and why their friend has become a "gun nut".
Fast forward to June of last year. I came home from work one morning and found some guy asleep in bed with my youngest daughter, who had decided that it was OK to do such things. I rousted them both out of bed, ordered him to get out of the house, and proceeded to call 911. He ran out of the house as I was being informed by the dispatcher that the one officer on duty that morning was on another call. She told me to call again if he came back.
I came down the stairs and the next thing I knew he was at the back door trying to get back in the house. I called 911 again, only to be told the officer was still on the other call. I remembered about Dad's guns and told the dispatcher that I was going to get my gun. It gets a little fuzzy at this point, but I remember having trouble remembering the 3 digit code for the locked case, and I remember the dispatcher kept talking to me (but I don't remember the conversation). As I was at the point of inserting the magazine into the gun to go shoot this man, who by that time was banging on the door trying to get it open, I was told by the dispatcher that the officer had arrived and to get the gun out of my hand--to set it down. The officer estimated that had he gotten there even one minute later that shots would have already been fired and this creep could very easily be laying in my laundry room or at the back door dead. All of this happened in a matter of maybe five minutes tops. The creep got arrested and is now serving a nine year sentence for doing things with minors adults aren't supposed to be doing.
The first thing this experience taught me is that there is no such thing as safety. It's just a perception--something we take for granted. The truth of the matter is that we can find ourselves in a bad situation in the blink of an eye, without warning. In less than the time it took me to walk down a flight of stairs, what happened in my home went from bad to worse.
The second, and probably the most important thing I learned, is that I knew nothing about shooting a gun. Up to this point, my only experience with guns had been shooting skeet with the men from a church I used to belong to twenty years ago. So, I found an indoor gun range about 35 miles from where I live, and started down this road that has led me to seeing the value of training for self defense purposes. What I didn't know would happen is me falling in love with the sport aspect of shooting. My groupings have gone from 12+ inches wide at 7 yards to maybe 3-4 inches at 25 yards.
Another very important thing I learned is what happens to the human body in high stress situations. To this day I cannot remember the conversation with the dispatcher from the moment I told her I was getting my gun to the moment she told me the officer had arrived. I can, however, remember that I couldn't remember the last digit of my own birthday, 629, to get the case unlocked. My fine motor skills disappeared while trying to get the case unlocked, and I also had trouble handling the gun once I got it out. Even knowing which way the magazine went into the gun had me fumbling with it. I have heard many menfolk talk a whole lotta crap about what they'd do or how they'd react in a situation that called for the use of a gun, but I learned that it's just that--talking a whole lotta crap. The truth of the matter is that, without a lot of practice to develop muscle memory, you aren't going to be the gunman you think you are.
So, basically, just sharing that whole experience, with more detail than I've given you, has gone a long way to show my friends that there is value in having a means of defense. Even if they never have to use it. Even if they don't develop a love for shooting in general. Owning a gun, and learning how to use it properly, will go a long way in overcoming that fear we all feel when it comes to something violent happening to us or our loved ones. It doesn't eliminate that fear, but it does give one a stronger sense of confidence in being able to survive an attack that could happen at any moment.
So, really, all I've been trying to say is that we just need to talk to folks and share with them our own stories--our own reasons why we have guns. If it's purely for sport, then tell folks what you love about the sport of shooting. If it's for self defense, then explain to them how you feel about the dangers in the world we live in. It doesn't have to be an argument or even a debate. It can be as simple as this is why I do this and this is what I've learned because of it.
I've got friends who, for various reasons, have never considered getting a gun that now want me to take them to the range to let them shoot my guns. How cool is that? Whether from curiosity, or from being able to see how much I love getting those tight groups, or maybe just to confront their fear of guns (I'm finding out that a lot of the objections to guns stems from a fear of them), at least half a dozen of my friends want to see what it's all about and why their friend has become a "gun nut".
stephen426
New member
@SonOfScubaDiver,
Thank you for sharing that personal story. Sometimes it takes a "situation" to cause an "awakening" to reality. I'm glad the police got there in time and that you did not have to shoot that creep. Even when justified, it is often traumatic. When there is a personal story like that, people tend to be much less argumentative, especially given your previous stance against guns. I'm glad that you took the time to get trained and practice. So many people own a gun for "self-defense" but never bother learning how to use it and never practice. You are absolutely right regarding fine motor skills going out the window under high stress situations. Practice and training will help overcome some of that as muscle memory develops and confidence builds.
While I enjoyed shooting BB guns as a kid, our family got real guns after some threats were made against us. A business owner at a shopping center was not getting his lease renewed. We were offered the space, but did not take it as this was the guy's only business. Another company ended up leasing it but he still blamed us. My wife's (at the time girlfriend) family actually knew the guy and said he was unstable. While nothing ever became of it, it was definitely unnerving.
Thanks again for sharing that personal story.
Thank you for sharing that personal story. Sometimes it takes a "situation" to cause an "awakening" to reality. I'm glad the police got there in time and that you did not have to shoot that creep. Even when justified, it is often traumatic. When there is a personal story like that, people tend to be much less argumentative, especially given your previous stance against guns. I'm glad that you took the time to get trained and practice. So many people own a gun for "self-defense" but never bother learning how to use it and never practice. You are absolutely right regarding fine motor skills going out the window under high stress situations. Practice and training will help overcome some of that as muscle memory develops and confidence builds.
While I enjoyed shooting BB guns as a kid, our family got real guns after some threats were made against us. A business owner at a shopping center was not getting his lease renewed. We were offered the space, but did not take it as this was the guy's only business. Another company ended up leasing it but he still blamed us. My wife's (at the time girlfriend) family actually knew the guy and said he was unstable. While nothing ever became of it, it was definitely unnerving.
Thanks again for sharing that personal story.