Gun Cleaning
- Thread starter Geek-With-A-Gun
- Start date
I believe you are using an incorrect definition of "corrosive".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosive_substance
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corrosive
Since some substances (many oils, for example) actually retard the action of corrosion and many other substances are essentially inert (neither promote nor retard corrosion), I do not believe there is any way to create a rational argument to support your assertion that all residue is corrosive.
twice barrel
New member
John,
You are entitled to your belief.
And if you don't believe any residue can invite corrosion go ahead and coat a well cleaned gun in a light coat of oil and stand it in the garage corner for a couple of years.
I've seen firsthand what this will produce.
On the other hand you can do the same thing but every couple of months clean it and relube it and it will hold up well, even if unfired.
Regards,
TB
You are entitled to your belief.
And if you don't believe any residue can invite corrosion go ahead and coat a well cleaned gun in a light coat of oil and stand it in the garage corner for a couple of years.
I've seen firsthand what this will produce.
On the other hand you can do the same thing but every couple of months clean it and relube it and it will hold up well, even if unfired.
Regards,
TB
It's not that the oil residue causes corrosion, it's that the oil only protects the gun for so long. Once the gun is no longer protected then the moisture in the air causes corrosion.
Correct. That's because you're not expecting the oil to protect the gun longer than it has to capability to protect.
That is why armories that store guns for the long term use special protectants that persist much longer than ordinary oil does.
twice barrel
New member
John,
You're looking for a direct relationship while I'm speaking of good practice. If oil can trap moisture, attract dust and other airborne particles, contain corrosives other than "oil" itself, etc. ...when you "oil" your gun with it and put it away the attack begins. You don't have to pour brake fluid on it to start the corrosion process, all you have to do is neglect it.
Not cleaning your gun after firing is the same thing.
Lately I've seen any number of posts on various boards declaring non-corrosive ammo to not cause corrosion. Same threads usually contain a comment along the lines that folks thinking they need to clean their guns after use must have been trained by WWII vets.
Surely these folks don't believe that the last people properly trained in caring for their firearms were WWII vets or their protege's? While I'm not certain what the current crusade is here I am certain they are positively wrong and are providing new firearms owners with misinformation.
Regards,
TB
You're looking for a direct relationship while I'm speaking of good practice. If oil can trap moisture, attract dust and other airborne particles, contain corrosives other than "oil" itself, etc. ...when you "oil" your gun with it and put it away the attack begins. You don't have to pour brake fluid on it to start the corrosion process, all you have to do is neglect it.
Not cleaning your gun after firing is the same thing.
Lately I've seen any number of posts on various boards declaring non-corrosive ammo to not cause corrosion. Same threads usually contain a comment along the lines that folks thinking they need to clean their guns after use must have been trained by WWII vets.
Surely these folks don't believe that the last people properly trained in caring for their firearms were WWII vets or their protege's? While I'm not certain what the current crusade is here I am certain they are positively wrong and are providing new firearms owners with misinformation.
Regards,
TB
Oil doesn't "trap moisture" unless you apply it over moisture and even then it's more likely to repel the moisture than trap it. I would say that applying oil to a wet gun without drying the gun first is probably not a good idea, but that's not something any rational gun owner is likely to do.
None of the other things you list are corrosive. The idea that there are corrosive particles floating about in the air waiting to be trapped by oil is just not reality.
You made the assertion that "Any residue is corrosive...even oil." That is simply not true. It's not even close to being true, in fact it's just almost exactly the opposite of true.
That's because it doesn't. It's not corrosive nor is it particularly hygroscopic. It's pretty much inert--it doesn't cause corrosion.
You're missing the entire point of the WWII reference. WWII was the last major conflict where corrosive ammunition was widely used. That's why WWII vets and the people tutored by them tend to be overly concerned about cleaning after firing.
There is some benefit to cleaning after every firing so I'm not in the camp that says one shouldn't clean after firing. However there have been times where I have not cleaned after firing and there were absolutely no ill effects--so I'm also not in the camp that says you MUST clean after firing or you're running a serious risk of corrosion.
The bottom line is that you can't fight misinformation with more misinformation and telling people that "Any residue is corrosive...even oil." is DEFINITELY misinformation.
Winterhawk56
New member
In my mind the preservation of a gun and its capability of providing years of service are directly tied to the care! That being said, I carry a can of Break Free with me to the range or hunting. After shooting (done for the day) I spray the barrel, bolt and trigger with some.
If I am hunting, I spray the barrel and run a few patches through it before the next days hunting. I always wipe the outside with an oil rag when I am done for the day or storing it.
I always clean my weapons within two to three day of shooting if not the day I shoot. Its just good practice. If its worth shooting, its worth taking care of!
My opinion and some differ.
If I am hunting, I spray the barrel and run a few patches through it before the next days hunting. I always wipe the outside with an oil rag when I am done for the day or storing it.
I always clean my weapons within two to three day of shooting if not the day I shoot. Its just good practice. If its worth shooting, its worth taking care of!
My opinion and some differ.
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twice barrel
New member
"Oil doesn't "trap moisture" unless you apply it over moisture and even then it's more likely to repel the moisture than trap it. I would say that applying oil to a wet gun without drying the gun first is probably not a good idea, but that's not something any rational gun owner is likely to do."
It most certainly can, does, and it can be totally inadertent. If fact some oils are hydroscopic.
"None of the other things you list are corrosive. The idea that there are corrosive particles floating about in the air waiting to be trapped by oil is just not reality."
We'll just have to disagree John. Some oils have corrosives in them as cleaning agents. Dust will attract and capture moisture. Oil will attract dust.
"You made the assertion that "Any residue is corrosive...even oil." That is simply not true. It's not even close to being true, in fact it's just almost exactly the opposite of true."
It is absolutely true. Go ahead and neglect your if you wish. Pardon me for speaking out against your views. At this point I can clearly see you just didn't like what I wrote and you are simply attempting to discredit me on technicalities. Must you have definitive clincial studies before you can accept the obvious? I won't provide you any and can only share what I've witnessed first hand. You can choose to believe it or not.
"That's because it doesn't. It's not corrosive nor is it particularly hygroscopic. It's pretty much inert--it doesn't cause corrosion. "
All firing residue is corrosive. (ie can lead to corrosion if not removed)
"You're missing the entire point of the WWII reference. WWII was the last major conflict where corrosive ammunition was widely used. That's why WWII vets and the people tutored by them tend to be overly concerned about cleaning after firing. "
That was not lost on me although its not the main issue that the WWII vets (& WWI vets) I knew were concerned with. Most of these folks had been thru hard times and had learned to take care of things to make them last and to keep them functioning as well as possible so that when they needed them to work they would. This was true even before they entered the service.
"There is some benefit to cleaning after every firing so I'm not in the camp that says one shouldn't clean after firing. However there have been times where I have not cleaned after firing and there were absolutely no ill effects--so I'm also not in the camp that says you MUST clean after firing or you're running a serious risk of corrosion."
While I consider the benefit to cleaning ASAP to be more than just "some" I agree.
"The bottom line is that you can't fight misinformation with more misinformation and telling people that "Any residue is corrosive...even oil." is DEFINITELY misinformation."
You are misinformed but I've had enough of the ******* contest. You are free to disagree.
TB
__________________
It most certainly can, does, and it can be totally inadertent. If fact some oils are hydroscopic.
"None of the other things you list are corrosive. The idea that there are corrosive particles floating about in the air waiting to be trapped by oil is just not reality."
We'll just have to disagree John. Some oils have corrosives in them as cleaning agents. Dust will attract and capture moisture. Oil will attract dust.
"You made the assertion that "Any residue is corrosive...even oil." That is simply not true. It's not even close to being true, in fact it's just almost exactly the opposite of true."
It is absolutely true. Go ahead and neglect your if you wish. Pardon me for speaking out against your views. At this point I can clearly see you just didn't like what I wrote and you are simply attempting to discredit me on technicalities. Must you have definitive clincial studies before you can accept the obvious? I won't provide you any and can only share what I've witnessed first hand. You can choose to believe it or not.
"That's because it doesn't. It's not corrosive nor is it particularly hygroscopic. It's pretty much inert--it doesn't cause corrosion. "
All firing residue is corrosive. (ie can lead to corrosion if not removed)
"You're missing the entire point of the WWII reference. WWII was the last major conflict where corrosive ammunition was widely used. That's why WWII vets and the people tutored by them tend to be overly concerned about cleaning after firing. "
That was not lost on me although its not the main issue that the WWII vets (& WWI vets) I knew were concerned with. Most of these folks had been thru hard times and had learned to take care of things to make them last and to keep them functioning as well as possible so that when they needed them to work they would. This was true even before they entered the service.
"There is some benefit to cleaning after every firing so I'm not in the camp that says one shouldn't clean after firing. However there have been times where I have not cleaned after firing and there were absolutely no ill effects--so I'm also not in the camp that says you MUST clean after firing or you're running a serious risk of corrosion."
While I consider the benefit to cleaning ASAP to be more than just "some" I agree.
"The bottom line is that you can't fight misinformation with more misinformation and telling people that "Any residue is corrosive...even oil." is DEFINITELY misinformation."
You are misinformed but I've had enough of the ******* contest. You are free to disagree.
TB
__________________
twice barrel
New member
John and Craig,
Here's an old analysis you may find interesting. Points to both sides of the aisle too.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fn...from nitrocellulose powder corrosive?&f=false
TB
Here's an old analysis you may find interesting. Points to both sides of the aisle too.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fn...from nitrocellulose powder corrosive?&f=false
TB
I was never trained to clean my gun by a WWII vet. I was first taught to clean my guns by a neighbor who was a Federal Officer and was not a WWII vet.
The Military taught me to clean my M16 as much as I could, that was in 67-68 and in Nam.
Later, I was taught by a Federal government handgun instructor do to the same thing.
And today, I still clean after going to the range, and I have a few well used handguns that show no adverse wear from cleaning.
Do what you want to do. I know people who after shooting a few hundred rounds at the range who just run a bore snake through the barrel and wipe the outside clean. Then there are those like me, who field strip and clean, and re-lube. In any case, all the handguns are still operative and show no extra wear from either cleaning or non-cleaning.
This could be argued back and forth for 10K years and there would still be no clear answer. But I do know trying to state if you clean after shooting you were trained by a WWII vet is NOT correct in all cases.
The Military taught me to clean my M16 as much as I could, that was in 67-68 and in Nam.
Later, I was taught by a Federal government handgun instructor do to the same thing.
And today, I still clean after going to the range, and I have a few well used handguns that show no adverse wear from cleaning.
Do what you want to do. I know people who after shooting a few hundred rounds at the range who just run a bore snake through the barrel and wipe the outside clean. Then there are those like me, who field strip and clean, and re-lube. In any case, all the handguns are still operative and show no extra wear from either cleaning or non-cleaning.
This could be argued back and forth for 10K years and there would still be no clear answer. But I do know trying to state if you clean after shooting you were trained by a WWII vet is NOT correct in all cases.
montelores
New member
What about cleaning .22s?
Monty
Monty
The word is "hygroscopic". I'm not aware of any hygroscopic oils but assuming they exist, I can assure you that you will not find any in any gun oils. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.
The reference you provided is NOT about oils trapping moisture, that is about oil being applied OVER a corrosive material. Specifically about oil being applied over the products of corrosive ammunition which can include nitric acid. It has NOTHING to do with noncorrosive ammunition. If you read the article carefully you will see that it is from the pre-WWII era when corrosive ammunition was still in use.
I can't speak for every oil out there, but again, I can assure you that you will not find any corrosive cleaning agents in any gun oils. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.
Assuming, for the sake of argument that airborne dust settling onto a surface is hygroscopic enough to cause corrosion, how is this dust and accompanying captured moisture supposed to work its way under the oil?
All right, you've made that allegation several times. If you want to be taken seriously you need to produce some sort of supporting evidence to verify your claim. And it needs to relate to modern non-corrosive ammunition--no more cites from the era when all ammunition was corrosive.
If you are correct in your assertion then you will have no problem providing some hard evidence to support it.
I still have my first firearm. A .22 semi-auto Winchester. It's about 37 years old now. It has had many thousands of rounds through it and still looks almost new. The bore even still shines. Still very accurate. The only part that has ever needed replaced is the recoil spring. I attribute this to the fact I have always cleaned and lubed it after shooting so I continue this practice with all of my firearms.
I have been told that burnt powder residue left in a firearm can obsorb moisture and it is that moisture that will cause corrosion. I've never looked for any scientific data to verify this as it is a non issue anyway since I keep mine clean.
I do know a friend of mine of about 5 years now has several rifles 4-5 years of age who only cleaned them when accuracy or function became a problem.
We did a long and difficult cleaning of them and the bores still will never look as good as my 37 year old one. He is now a convert.
I have been told that burnt powder residue left in a firearm can obsorb moisture and it is that moisture that will cause corrosion. I've never looked for any scientific data to verify this as it is a non issue anyway since I keep mine clean.
I do know a friend of mine of about 5 years now has several rifles 4-5 years of age who only cleaned them when accuracy or function became a problem.
We did a long and difficult cleaning of them and the bores still will never look as good as my 37 year old one. He is now a convert.
Dad taught me to...
Even though Dad isn't old enough to be a WW2 vet, he is old school and taught me to clean the weapon after every time it was shot, even if it was just a few times, .22LR, shotgun, .38, doesn't matter. Dad was pretty funny when I was growing up. When I was a kiddo, we would go to the range and shoot. Dad might bring a deer rifle, a couple of handguns and a .22 rifle. I'd get to shoot the .22 several times and if I was really lucky maybe one or two rounds from one of the handguns. Of course, when we got home, I had to clean every gun that went to the range, whether it was one I shot or not. Dad would inspect every weapon when I thought I was done...
John and TB, I can't keep up with much of yall's vocabulary, but I was always taught to leave a very thin film of oil on every weapon going back into storage. Seems to go against my instincts to read about that somehow leading to corrosion.
Also drilled into me was to clean the weapon every six months or so, whether it has been fired or not, inspite of my location in a very dry environment (high plains of Colorado). Like DasFriek, I find it comforting to just handle the weapon while I clean it- even it is a shotgun that I only use for sporting clays 4 - 5 times a year.
Even though Dad isn't old enough to be a WW2 vet, he is old school and taught me to clean the weapon after every time it was shot, even if it was just a few times, .22LR, shotgun, .38, doesn't matter. Dad was pretty funny when I was growing up. When I was a kiddo, we would go to the range and shoot. Dad might bring a deer rifle, a couple of handguns and a .22 rifle. I'd get to shoot the .22 several times and if I was really lucky maybe one or two rounds from one of the handguns. Of course, when we got home, I had to clean every gun that went to the range, whether it was one I shot or not. Dad would inspect every weapon when I thought I was done...
John and TB, I can't keep up with much of yall's vocabulary, but I was always taught to leave a very thin film of oil on every weapon going back into storage. Seems to go against my instincts to read about that somehow leading to corrosion.
Also drilled into me was to clean the weapon every six months or so, whether it has been fired or not, inspite of my location in a very dry environment (high plains of Colorado). Like DasFriek, I find it comforting to just handle the weapon while I clean it- even it is a shotgun that I only use for sporting clays 4 - 5 times a year.
twice barrel
New member
John,
I don't need to provide you anything. Do your own research. I know what I've seen and have provided you something to read more authoritative. You will note the findings on the "corrosiveness" of the firing residue is more in agreement with you. But they acknowledge it doesn't explain away the experience of all situations. Even compounds not specifically considered "corrosive" still can assist in corrosion and they certainly aren't protective.
The moisture you speak of can be from humid conditions relative to the area. You will note they cite the dew even in arid regions. Growing up along the Texas gulf coast provided me with ample exposure to maintaining firearms in humid conditions as well as witnessing the results of neglect.
Regards,
TB
I don't need to provide you anything. Do your own research. I know what I've seen and have provided you something to read more authoritative. You will note the findings on the "corrosiveness" of the firing residue is more in agreement with you. But they acknowledge it doesn't explain away the experience of all situations. Even compounds not specifically considered "corrosive" still can assist in corrosion and they certainly aren't protective.
The moisture you speak of can be from humid conditions relative to the area. You will note they cite the dew even in arid regions. Growing up along the Texas gulf coast provided me with ample exposure to maintaining firearms in humid conditions as well as witnessing the results of neglect.
Regards,
TB