Grouping at different ranges

Is it reasonable for 300yd group to repeat MOA at 600?
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No, the group at 600 will subtend a 30 to 40 percent greater angle. If it's 1.5 MOA at 300 it'll be around 2 MOA or so at 600.

Developing long range loads at 300 yards is about 3 times better than doing it at 100.

You'll be high on the hog at 600 yards if you shoot your stuff in 1 MOA.

What kind of match will you be shooting at 600 yards: benchrest, prone, F class or whatever?
 
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A good group at 100 yards does not necessarily mean it will be a good group at 600 yards. The only thing you can be sure of is that a bad group at 100 will be a terrible group at 600.:rolleyes:
 
Boogieman - A good group at 300 will hold much better than a 100 yard group..
If you don't hold MOA at 600-It is no reason at all to hold head in shame. The fact that you are trying is all the matters. I found to ease the pressure I felt, all I did was--Shoot against yourself. Your not going for the win always- Just to better yourself. The people you will shoot against I can tell you will be the best, nicest , helpfull people you have ever meet. Holding MOA at 600 is not that hard really.
People make it sound real hard, but try it once and you will see it is not that much harder than 300. A good scope will be a must for long range shooting.
Lots of things must come together for 600 and farther shots,but still it is not hard.
Now Bart is quoting you facts and statistics. Heed his advice for sure, but take with a grain of salt also. Holding MOA at 600 is easy. Now I am coming from F Class open( Laying on your belly) That is the most stabel position you can be in.
I have access to 1000 yards and more,so practice is easy for me, that and I shoot about 300 plus rounds a weekend between my 308 and 6BR. Have at it with the thought in mind you are compeating against yourself and you will have a blast.
 
also bear in mind that there are people out there who seem to be very well versed on matters, that will tell you a 3 shot group doesn't tell you enough about the performance of a load to be consistently useful.

And I think that a single 3 shot group from each load doesn't tell you anything more than if you have safe working pressure, and where those three shots happened to go.

If 3 shots is the only test you do with each load, you might wind up choosing your load based on a fluke. Of course, if you do, it will become apparent soon enough. ;)
 
Holding MOA at 600, to me, means your aiming point stays inside a 6 inch circle.

Shooting MOA at 600 means all bullets land inside 6 inches.

If you want to shoot inside 6 inches at 600, you'll have to hold and get shots off inside 3 inches for a rifle and ammo that shoots inside 3 inches at 600. The shooters holding and let off area is much smaller than the area shots fall into. If the let off isn't the same for every shots, the barrel will point somewhere else when the bullet leaves instead of where it's supposed to. That's why top ranked shooters hold 2/3 MOA in prone, but their rifle and ammo that tested 1/2 MOA prints 2 MOA or more on the target. In high power match rifle competition, such results will often win at long range.

In contrast, you can easily hold under 1/4 MOA at 600 yards in an F class position with the rifle on a rest. Your letoff area will not add very much to that so shooting inside 1 MOA is easier with a 1/2 MOA rifle and area.

No grains salt, sand or wheat in that; just simple facts. Nobody shoots many-shot groups equal to or smaller than their aiming area they hold in.
 
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Bart-Yes,Bullets stay inside 6 inch circle from farthest to farthest. I know what MOA means. And no it is not that hard to do. I shoot with others that do MUCH better than that. I scored for a Guy named Brian at my second match. The marker for the spotter to read came off X one time to a 10. all other 19 rounds where in the X. Best I have done is 18 out of 20 in the X with 2 in the 9 for a score of 198. 6 Inches is a darn big bullseye Bart.
Brian was the guy that went to the Grand Master Match in Montana and took second place at 1000 yards with a 308.
 
Gosh...Load development with
1) various bullets,
2) various cases,
3) various powders,
4) various primers,
5) various bullet jump into riflings and now
6) the purported need to repeat development at various distances

Leads me to the conclusion that nobody will ever get it exactly right!
Yet many talk as if they have, leaving the new to reloader completely baffled.

There should be a simple way pick a bullet for the hunt or target that will be expected to stabilize, test it for accuracy and stability at 100 yds. While at the same time pick and test the appropriate primer, powders and jump. This would help get new reloaders started and probably refocus many others (that may have striated off course) back in the right direction without over whelming them.
 
RaySendero, it's easy. For me and my '06, it works this way in my experience:

Powder: My uncle told me to use 4064. It worked in 1950 and still does, today.

Primers: Remchesters work. I started with the Rem 9-1/2 and went to Win Large Rifle because of availability. Now, the Large Rifle/Magnum does just fine.

Bullets: 150-grain for Bambi. I like the critters in the pretty green box, and don't like the color of the yellow box. My father always liked the red box. They all work pretty much equally well.

Pretty simple, really. Makes it easy for my simple mind. :D
 
4runnerman, I think we've got different meanings for "bullseye." Mine's the size of the black on a target. I think yours is the size of the smaller scoring rings.

On a high power 600 yard target, the black's 36" diameter; smallest scoring ring, the X, is 6" diameter, 10 ring's 12" diameter.

On an F class 600 yard target, the black's 36" diameter; smallest scoring ring, the X, is 3" diameter, 10 ring's 6" diameter.
 
Powder: My uncle told me to use 4064. It worked in 1950 and still does, today.
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I keep trying other powders.................I always come back to 4064. 4895 is close, but in my experience its more temp sensitive the 4064.

Not to mention, 4064 seems to be the most "available" powder in this part of the woods. I keep thinking people will discover it, so I pick up a couple cans every time I'm in town................I need another storage locker.

I too have went exclusively to Winchester primers.

As to the Red Box Bullets.............we've all heard of Gary Anderson, Olympic Master, set records that have yet to be broken in 300 Meter Shooting. I asked him what was the best bullet. He told me any of them work as long as the are Hornady's.
 
Right you are Bart. F Class Open is what I shoot and all I can refer to as I have not shot anything else (Very breif period in FTR). My point is staying inside 6 inches is pretty darn easy at 600 yards. Heck I get over 50% inside the X ring, and that still is not as good as a few others do there.

Ray- I have found reloaders nest to be a great place to start. Thousands of loads there for every rifle you could think of. Pick a caliber and go to work. Check out all the loads listed for that caliber and you get a base line as to what weight bullet and what powder to use. Most times you can find someone shooting the same rifle you have. You still need to do your load work up, but it does give you a starting point.
 
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There should be a simple way pick a bullet for the hunt or target that will be expected to stabilize, test it for accuracy and stability at 100 yds.
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That's how the vast majority of shooter test their loads, and despite the long winded, highly technical and opinionated dissertations to the contrary, it's all that most shooters ever need to accomplish their goals.
 
To the OP:

The question you have asked is susceptible of any number of answers, ranging from extremely detailed to excruciatingly detailed. In fact, it might be a fine candidate for the final exam question in a course on exterior ballistics.

However, here is a somewhat simplified response that may, at least, get you started.

"Accuracy," meaning the probability that the round will hit within a defined radius of the point of aim, is the product of three factor sets: shooter accuracy, machine accuracy, and other factors.

Shooter accuracy involves consistency of sight picture, consistency of trigger break, breathing control, and the like. In general, shooter accuracy is not range dependant.

Machine accuracy is the capacity of the rifle to put multiple rounds with a group of defined radius, when (for purpose of analysis) it is assumed that the rifle is held in a vice, so as to take shooter accuracy out of the equation. Machine accuracy is affected by a huge list of factors, including quality of manufacture, bedding, sighting system rigidity, load, COAL, and others. However, once you tailor these factors so as to yield a given machine accuracy in angular terms (i.e., MOA), machine accuracy is not range dependant in the interval between bullet stabilization and bullet velocity descent into transonic range. In my experience, this interval runs from about 100 yards (or less) through about 600-800 yards, given quality bullets and tailored loads.

Other factors is where things get tough, and as a general rule, this set of issues doesn't become significant at less than 300 yards. Mirage is one factor often overlooked, but it can play havoc with the shooter's ability to get the desired sight picture. Wind is No. 2, because at long range wind is not consistent from firing line to target. Unless you can psych out the wind's net effect over range, you can't adjust for it, and what distinguishes the long range shooters who bring home trophies from those who match entry fees pay for the trophies is the ability to "guess" wind accurately.

If you want to descend into minutiae, other "Other Factors" include spin drift, precession, the coriolis effect, and a few others. In theory, these also apply at "short" ranges, but their coefficient is so small as to be masked by other things. At long ranges, not necessarily so.

Whew! What is the bottom line? This: if you work out a load that fairly consistently shoots .75 MOA at 100 yards (say, just for example, 168 SMK pushed by 42.2 grains of Reloder 15, trickled, and seated to 15 thou jump), that load will also shoot .75 MOA at 200 yards, 300 yards, and beyond. But when you go beyond, you have to learn some new shooter techniques.
 
Art Eatman wrote:

RaySendero, it's easy. For me and my '06, it works this way in my experience:

Powder: My uncle told me to use 4064. It worked in 1950 and still does, today.

Primers: Remchesters work. I started with the Rem 9-1/2 and went to Win Large Rifle because of availability. Now, the Large Rifle/Magnum does just fine.

Bullets: 150-grain for Bambi. I like the critters in the pretty green box, and don't like the color of the yellow box. My father always liked the red box. They all work pretty much equally well.

Pretty simple, really. Makes it easy for my simple mind. :D
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Art, That's kinda what I'm talking about - Both easy and simple! :D


I liken reloading to pitching a baseball or swinging a golf club - If you start with poor coaching &/or technique, you may have to live with them for a long time. Even some as basic as like the beginning skeet shooter should properly position their feet at the get-go.

With all the reloading knowledge we have on this site - You would think we could come up with something basic, both easy and simple without over whelming. AND that all this/our advanced knowledge could be provided a little at a time so that it is absorbed and fully understood. Somehow we seem to try to get it all in at once.
 
I keep trying other powders.................I always come back to 4064. 4895 is close, but in my experience its more temp sensitive the 4064.
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When I was trying to figure out a starting point I looked at my Lee and Lyman manuals and felt that 4064 offered the best chance of getting me to where I want to be. Funny thing is I came across a can that my dads buddy used to develop loads (for my Dad) back in the 70's. Sure enough its 4064. Dads buddy was very methodical and tried nearly everything on the market at the time. Im confident that it will get me to where I need to be if I do my part.
 
I'll later post a 30-06 load that was popular across many rifles from 100 to 1000 yards in competition. No work up needed. Just load it into new or properly sized cases then shoot it. It easily shot 1/3 MOA at 100, 1/2 at 300, 3/4 at 600 and a bit over 1 MOA at 1000 yards.

If the rifle and shooter are up to it.

Most people don't need to work up loads anyway. If they shoot enough shots per test group, popular ones that have a good track record usually shoot better than any work up loads made with a handful of few shot groups and picking the smallest one to go with.

Here 'tis......

Full length size cases then prime them with Tulammo or Winchester large rifle primers.

Sierra 150 grain bullets over 51 grains of IMR4064.

Sierra 165 grain bullets over 48 grains of IMR4064.

Sierra 180 grain bullets over 47 grains of IMR4064.

Seat 'em all to a 3.35" overall length.
 
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Winchester primers are hotter than most and that's good in cold weather. Tulammo primers are my choice for warmer weather.

If you want to descend into minutiae, other "Other Factors" include spin drift, precession, the coriolis effect, and a few others. In theory, these also apply at "short" ranges, but their coefficient is so small as to be masked by other things. At long ranges, not necessarily so.
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Those things are too small to try to correct for at any range. They're all masked by the human inability to accurately correct for crosswinds in the bullets' trajectory to the target. It gets worse as range increases because crosswind speeds above the line of sight are faster than those in the line of sight; it varies with terrain. What are those few others?

Machine rests that hold a rifle like humans do and let the rifle recoil back and swing up like it does when people shoot it eliminate all human influence. To rates, I don't think any commercial ones are available. A dozen or more of a great design were made around 1960 and have been used by a few Nat'l Champions with great success.

Clamping a rifle in a fixed mount is only good for muzzle velocity tests but the numbers will be higher than when the arm is hand held. It's barrel will whip differently than a rifle in a free recoiling, upward tilting when fired, cradle. Accuracy with a solid mounted rifle is meaningless
 
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Snyper:

POI changes with distance, for a couple of factors, not only gravity and loss of velocity. Bullet path doesn't just vary vertically, but bullets travel in ever-enlarging spirals, due to imperfections in bullet manufacturing, muzzle flip and rotational precession (movement like a spinning top).

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You may have attributed it to wind, mirage, etc., but it does occur and is documented by scientific testing.

Got any links to this "documentation"?

I'm not buying the everchanging direction, spiraling around some central point.

Bullets do not travel in a "corkscrew" manner

I hear the "spinning top" analogy a lot, when the truth is a top isn't "ballistic", and simply rolls on a flat surface if it spirals
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From the book "The Bullet's Flight" by Mann: Page 243 paragraph 3..."Most bullets, being more or less unbalanced, begin to develop a tip and an oscillation immediately upon their exit from the muzzle, and those that do not tumble in their flight will gyrate, due to air pressure on or near their points."

This information, plus that read about scientific test that included precisely placing thin paper screens for several hundred yards to determine the effect of hitting uniform dowels at various positions by several calibers/bullet shapes; actually found that the control bullets that didn't impact dowels still showed a slight amount of spiral. However, those that impacted the dowels, showed a much larger spiral. This test is over 40 years old, I believe and may have been in the American Rifleman, but my recollection of the publication is not 100%.

JP
 
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