Ground Training
- Thread starter stonewall50
- Start date
Very true. Its definitely there at the gym and the first time you walk in it is intimidating. But then you realize there is a 75 yr old guy in there training. You realize nearly every person is nice to one another and respects on another. While a 20 yr old competitor is busting his butt during class the 40+ crowd is just doing the best they can. That might mean keeping up with the 20 yr olds or just getting a workout and doing what they can. I have seen people train with all kinds of disabilities and at all ages. Ive seen people with broken legs train, missing arms, MS, etc and every one of them said they can't believe how much better they feel afterward.
But learning close quarters combat should be #1 on every CCW holders list otherwise you are really just a liability because its too easy to take your gun from you. People who don't do it just don't understand. I can take a grown man down in a blink of an eye, control his arms, legs, etc and litterally play with him as if he were a child. Ground fighting/close distance fighting is not natural so when doing it against an untrained person its like dealing with a child even if they are bigger than you. Now I have 7-8 yrs training under me so its easy to say that but even a few months of training is A LOT and will significantly increase your odds if things take a turn for the worse. Just knowing how to avoid going to the ground is huge.
zincwarrior
New member
Any fight someone like myself gets into is effectively a defacto right to full self defense. Youngins get in bar fights. Oldins don't. We get attacked.
Note: I live in Texas. Our facts on the ground in this area may be different as we are extremely pro-defense, even in the California quarantine zone that is Austin.
For large portions of the population, if you're on the ground, you're already incapacitated. I'm fine with practicing close draws, hip shooting into a target you're in contract with, and drawing from a prone position.
MMA, thats completely different. If you want to, great. For many of us, even the majority of us, thats not appropriate.
Note: I live in Texas. Our facts on the ground in this area may be different as we are extremely pro-defense, even in the California quarantine zone that is Austin.
For large portions of the population, if you're on the ground, you're already incapacitated. I'm fine with practicing close draws, hip shooting into a target you're in contract with, and drawing from a prone position.
MMA, thats completely different. If you want to, great. For many of us, even the majority of us, thats not appropriate.
Last edited:
zincwarrior
New member
Against such advanced masters of combat like yourself why even try? I mean if you can take a grown man down in the blink of an eye and all.
Those large proportions of the population probably shouldnt be carrying a gun. Its irresponsible of you if I can take it away from you as easily as taking something away from my 3 yr old. Remember the 21 ft rule...if someone is closer than that you probably cant draw in time if they charge. If you draw further than that you are probably breaking the law unless they have a weapon or are a direct threat to your life. If you cant defend yourself inside that space you are ignoring a majority of self defense encounters you are going to have. How many self defense situations involve a bad guy further than 21ft away?
If you know how to stop me from taking you down I wont be able to do it. If you show correct resistance I would try something else. Its that most people have no clue. They would probably try to knee my head or punch me while I threw them on their backs and dominated them.
zincwarrior
New member
If you say so. Not seeing how MMA fighting on the ground equates with practice on contact shooting though-as you are describing something completely different.
Or they blow your brains right out of your head. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
zincwarrior said:
AdamBomb said:
AdamBomb,
I cannot begin to express the strength of my disagreement with that statement. These are the people who need guns the most. People who are not in the bar-fight demographic are more likely to be attacked by both resource and process predators, and less likely to have the physical ability to handle their attacker. The attacker is likely to be younger, faster, stronger, and more agile than them, too -- and your answer is, "Well then don't carry a gun"??
It's not for nothing that they call it an equalizer.
zincwarrior said:
That's a good place to start, though hip shooting may not be as useful for your particular needs as a good two-handed "hold onto the gun with all your available strength" retention position. Based on this idea, Cirillo's Nose-Point technique would likely be a good thing to add to your skill set, if you can find someone to teach it to you. That position offers excellent retention from someone trying to grab the gun away from you, and it is a stable shooting platform which is especially important since you have decided that shooting will be your primary defense in a deadly force situation.
This isn't the only way someone can defend themselves from a gun grab, by any means. But it is one method that works well for people who aren't as physically capable.
pax
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Not carrying a gun because you don't have superb ground fighting skills is quite a silly statement. All the ground fighting skills in the world won't help you in an Orlando, San Bernadino or Mumbai horror show.
It's nice to proclaim that you are the epitome of some warrior madness. You are insane if you don't shoot 4000 rounds a year in practice from a 1911. Or have the blade skills of Sir Lancelot or some ninja.
Pax has it nailed. Well, you better have hammer and nail skills too.
Back to vacation mode!
It's nice to proclaim that you are the epitome of some warrior madness. You are insane if you don't shoot 4000 rounds a year in practice from a 1911. Or have the blade skills of Sir Lancelot or some ninja.
Pax has it nailed. Well, you better have hammer and nail skills too.
Back to vacation mode!
The best way for someone to prevent their gun from being grabbed is to keep the gun out of the aggressors reach. Blading your body and using one arm to try to keep some distance while the other is drawing and firing is a good plan. At gun grabbing distance you don't need to shoot with both hands to be accurate.
If a younger, stronger, and faster aggressor gets his hands on your gun he's probably going to rip it out of your hands pretty easily. It's not that difficult to do to a weaker slower person. The last thing you want is tug' o' war over a pistol. That's why it's best to keep your gun as far from reach as possible. There are alot of criminals out there who practice disarming techniques.
If a younger, stronger, and faster aggressor gets his hands on your gun he's probably going to rip it out of your hands pretty easily. It's not that difficult to do to a weaker slower person. The last thing you want is tug' o' war over a pistol. That's why it's best to keep your gun as far from reach as possible. There are alot of criminals out there who practice disarming techniques.
zincwarrior
New member
Good points Pax. To be absolutely clear I am strongly in favor of arguments to practice weapon retention. I definitely a remiss in not practicing those.
stonewall50
New member
So I have a YouTube channel and one of the things I have done there is make a playlist of old school "martial arts/military" training videos that I found. I will just go search for them to watch for fun. It is cool to get the perspective of 1960s FBI or watch some First World War era army training.
What was the common denominator? Most of the grappling was basic wrestling. Maybe some minor judo (which was getting to be known by the likes of Theodore Roosevelt back then).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50
New member
Honestly...I have found that the fights that ended up on the ground...weren't supposed to be there. 2 people were fighting and couldn't keep their balance. If some guy gets the drop on you for whatever reason and you end up in a fight...you may grab ahold of him or he may grab you trying to get the upper hand. And it may be nobody's choice but it still ended up there.
I agree 100% that it shouldn't be your first time pontificating what the heck you should do next. But I do have 1 helpful practice: get your legs involved. If you got your legs between you and the bad guy you have a much better chance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50
New member
A bullet doesn't care if you are 6'5 245 and have trained in all the elite combat forces and never lost a fight. Flesh is flesh and it will go right through.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If the heavier dude gets on top, it's "ground-n-pound" til the lights go out on the bottom dudenal. That's just the way of things in the martial arts.
Don't care if you're Bruce Lee, Chuckles Norris, or that horn-dog Steven Seagal.
Doesn't matter. Everyone's got talent, training, and an awesome plan til they get BAMMED! upside the head.
Then the lights go out, and you - wearing your cute little Krav Maga or Aikido black belt - hit the floor. And that's when the classic biker boot-stomping party starts.
Think about it seriously. Some martial arts are sports, or involve a lot of staring at your navel and discussion about metaphysical stuff; ... others are much more "street" realistic.
Don't care if you're Bruce Lee, Chuckles Norris, or that horn-dog Steven Seagal.
Doesn't matter. Everyone's got talent, training, and an awesome plan til they get BAMMED! upside the head.
Then the lights go out, and you - wearing your cute little Krav Maga or Aikido black belt - hit the floor. And that's when the classic biker boot-stomping party starts.
Think about it seriously. Some martial arts are sports, or involve a lot of staring at your navel and discussion about metaphysical stuff; ... others are much more "street" realistic.
Last edited:
True, but if you recall, TM wasn't in reality the small little boy as seen in all the sympathetic pics his family gave the media .... At the time of the incident, he was actually taller, quicker, and, apparently, stronger than George what's-his-name.
But yeah, being armed and trained to use your weapon can "equalize" the odds.
Last edited:
You mean...
If the guy who can grapple gets on top, it's "ground-n-pound" til the lights go out on the bottom dude
Weight is insignificant if one of the guys is skilled and the other is not. I have submitted professional football lineman in seconds because they had no clue how to fight. It seems natural to fight but once you learn how to do it you realize how bad we naturally are at it. Now if both guys know what they are doing then yes weight/strength will matter. But against an untrained guy it doesn't help as much as you would think.
adamBomb,
Having grappled on and off, I understand completely where you are coming from.
However, the reality is that most highly skilled MMA fighters are not predators. The discipline, dedication, constant physical exertion, and acceptance of constant defeat for the first several months are not traits often found in criminals. The most dangerous criminals in a hand to hand combat situation would either be convicts who learned to fight in prison, or people with some high school wrestling experience. As far as prison goes, it's not a grapple friendly environment, so they tend to rely on strikes and weapons.
It is important to train basic ground fighting and weapon retention techniques. However, the notion that one should spend thousands of dollars and countless hours in an MMA gym every year just isn't realistic for most. It would be the equivalent of building a 12 foot reinforced block wall to protect the rear of your house, and settling with a white picket fence for the front.
Having grappled on and off, I understand completely where you are coming from.
However, the reality is that most highly skilled MMA fighters are not predators. The discipline, dedication, constant physical exertion, and acceptance of constant defeat for the first several months are not traits often found in criminals. The most dangerous criminals in a hand to hand combat situation would either be convicts who learned to fight in prison, or people with some high school wrestling experience. As far as prison goes, it's not a grapple friendly environment, so they tend to rely on strikes and weapons.
It is important to train basic ground fighting and weapon retention techniques. However, the notion that one should spend thousands of dollars and countless hours in an MMA gym every year just isn't realistic for most. It would be the equivalent of building a 12 foot reinforced block wall to protect the rear of your house, and settling with a white picket fence for the front.
That is true all other things being equal. However, if one guy is just big and strong and the smaller guy has training in ground fighting the tables can be reversed rapidly and easily. Keep in mind too that if the guy on top knows what he's doing and has a secure mount you won't be drawing a gun from anywhere other than a shoulder holster.
More people than you might think have at least a little training in martial arts. If you end up on your back with someone on top of you that knows a little juijitsu you're potentially in real bad trouble. That's why I urge people to train if at all possible.