Ground Training

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stonewall50

New member
So today in my jujitsu class we decided to do something a little different. We have been doing some punch defense and other things for those of us who are not just in it for the sport aspect. We decided to see how easy it would be to access a "gun" while on the defensive (already knocked down and dealing with an opponent is still coming).

I have to say...if I am ever, god forbid, knocked down to that level...I am very happy I have a significant amount of ground training. Getting your legs involved, bridging, shrimping, sweeping, and even modifying a Kimora from guard could put you in the position you need to save your ass. So with all the above said...do you have any ground techniques that you train periodically? Like drawing or firing from the ground and so on?


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Good stuff to train because if you're drawing your gun most likely there is a weapon involved, you're taking a bad beating, or you're being choked out.
 
You would be surprised how many trained professionals (ie police/military) are shot by their own gun when a bad guy steals it because they do not know how to grapple. If you are serious about self defense you know how to fight in close quarters since a majority of self defense encounters occur in this range. I think most of us would be really surprised at how bad we are at using our guns if we were in a real situation and the bad guy charges within a few feet of you...you cant draw and you have to fight. Don't believe me? Go to a local high school wrestling practice and ask the kid to stand 5-7 feet away. Tell him to charge and take you down while you try to draw a fake gun...you will end up on your back every single time. And if you think you are going to use your gun at further distances than that you better be able to justify it because if you shoot someone from 20+ feet away it is sounding more like murder not self defense.

I have trained BJJ+Muay Thai for years
 
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Korean Karate in the 70's, firearms retention training in the 80's, (ARCON) in the 90's and Krav in the 2000's. I am not warrior by any stretch of the imagination but I am confident that I can put up some thoughtful resistance to a badguy trying to get my firearm.
 
I'm too old a bunny to worry about fighting from the ground level. If I am on the ground then the wife has just emptied a mag into your face and is trying help my fat a*&^ get back up.

If my wife is not there, you wouldn't have had the chance to get nearly that close in the first place. "Beware of old guys. They are too old to fight and will likely just kill you instead."
 
I think that what is important is that when a person needs to fight on the ground that its NOT the first time they have ever had to come up with a method to combat it. I don't really think it much matter what method or [art] it is, as long as you are pretty good at it.

The person who takes you to ground will likely have a plan.. you need a better one or at least be able to substantially and effectively hinder theirs
 
If my wife is not there, you wouldn't have had the chance to get nearly that close in the first place. "Beware of old guys. They are too old to fight and will likely just kill you instead."
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Hopefully your assailant telegraphs his intentions at a distance then, or doesn't blindside you. It can and does happen and it's good to try to develop a workable plan before it does.

Good to know your wife is able to provide backup. That's a big advantage. Having some nasty pepper spray in the purse might not be a bad idea either in case the situation doesn't justify a shooting.
 
Hopefully your assailant telegraphs his intentions at a distance then, or doesn't blindside you. It can and does happen and it's good to try to develop a workable plan before it does.
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Sorry let me be clear. I don't go to places where people are that close to me when the wife is around that I couldn't draw. I do have a workable plan and practice it almost daily.

A good Bill Drill is a real thing. If I've been knocked down its too late anyway. Ground training for older persons is going to mean "training on how to get back up and/or call 911 because I've pulled my back and can't move." :rolleyes:
You have to remember everyone is different and must prepare for what works for them.


Having some nasty pepper spray in the purse might not be a bad idea either in case the situation doesn't justify a shooting.
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Indeed! Both wife and daughter have such. I have a large one when walking dogs which has turned out handy on a Husky, and this last month a person (who got to close in a threatening manner).
 
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I don't go to places where people are that close to me
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Realistically speaking, if you are talking about public places, you cant really control what other people may do at a moments notice. Happenstance will often demand that people are within arms reach and for totally benign reasons. If they can get that close, so can the bad guys who use the situation to their advantage.
 
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I don't go to places where people are that close to me
Realistically speaking, if you are talking about public places, you cant really control what other people may do at a moments notice. Happenstance will often demand that people are within arms reach and for totally benign reasons. If they can get that close, so can the bad guys who use the situation to their advantage.
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I'll be frank. I don't envision bad guys appearing and busting a move trying to take me down in the Houston central business district with horse cops standing across the street, or want to flip out an MMA match while standing in the checkout lane of the grocery, or even the barbecue joint under Chase Tower. If they do I am far better positioned to shoot them then try to bust a Bruce Leroy on them (two internets if you get that without looking it up).

There are definable areas of potential conflict to be aware of, and one should be aware, but to have a desire to train MMA style is misplaced for many of us. At that point its far too late. I can't MMA fight when I have difficulties making it up stairs. These include gas stations, restaurants, parking lots, etc. I'm far more concerned about a gun in my face than someone trying to take me down.

But if you wish to do so, go right ahead. Worse to worst it looks like great exercise which is never a bad thing. When I was younger I took a variety of things as well and was glad I did.

But for me, perceptual awareness is far more important at my advanced old fart age.
 
"...shot by their own gun..." None. A firearm is an inanimate object.
"...Beware of old guys..." Mostly because we don't care what happens to you. Us doing it is just a bonus. It's been 'them agin' us' a lot longer too. snicker.
"...you have any ground techniques..." Yep. Stay off the ground. If the BG is coming at you, he's likely not armed. Negates the use of a firearm in most places. Unless he's way bigger than you.
"..."training on how to get back up and..." Yep. Tripped over a hunk of wire 2 weeks ago, landed on my wrist(Out for stopping the fall), then onto the elbow. Learned yesterday I fractured a bone in my right elbow. While on the ground, I couldn't have done squat. Not able to put pressure on my hand.
Couple young guy and a girl came running to try help. So the world isn't as bad as some think.
 
I think that what is important is that when a person needs to fight on the ground that its NOT the first time they have ever had to come up with a method to combat it.
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Exactly. Any type of close combat training is going to be very helpful.

Most self defense is close quarters. In close quarters someone can charge you faster than you can draw and get a shot off. If you can't control someone who closes the distance on you there is a good chance your gun can be used against you. Too many people think of their gun as a safety net. Rather than being concerned with the number of rounds one is carrying as we usually are on these forums we should be concerned with dealing with people at close distances. Your gun might as well be a paper weight if the person is 5 ft from you and is going to take you down.
 
"...shot by their own gun..." None. A firearm is an inanimate object.
"...Beware of old guys..." Mostly because we don't care what happens to you. Us doing it is just a bonus. It's been 'them agin' us' a lot longer too. snicker.
"...you have any ground techniques..." Yep. Stay off the ground. If the BG is coming at you, he's likely not armed. Negates the use of a firearm in most places. Unless he's way bigger than you.
"..."training on how to get back up and..." Yep. Tripped over a hunk of wire 2 weeks ago, landed on my wrist(Out for stopping the fall), then onto the elbow. Learned yesterday I fractured a bone in my right elbow. While on the ground, I couldn't have done squat. Not able to put pressure on my hand.
Couple young guy and a girl came running to try help. So the world isn't as bad as some think.
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Exactly, although sorry to hear about your arm.
 
Sounds like you keep your head on a swivel Zinc that's good. Hopefully the awareness will cause someone to look for the easier target.

I'd like to see more old folks going for the OC. From first hand experience that stuff is nasty! If you're in a situation where you're too infirm to fight, but can't justify shooting, a face full of OC will absolutely ruin someone's day and give you a chance to get out of Dodge. Law enforcement uses it because even we don't want to go hands on with everyone. It's not about what's the most macho, it's about surviving the encounter with little or no injury.
 
Zincwarrior, I was reminded recently that there are many situations where it is impossible to maintain distance from all threats. I had a hot-headed guy walk up to me in a parking lot, expressing his anger at me stopping to let my physically handicapped wife out of the car. I remained calm, stood my ground and after a few seconds he decided that he didn't want a piece of me after all. I really wanted to teach the guy some manners, but some people aren't easily taught and while I was still steaming an hour later, I made the right choice. I saw the guy coming and had time to draw and fire, use pepper spray, or to strike first but did not based on my read. I could have been wrong, but every situation requires awareness and assessment. There are no one size fits all solutions.
 
Exactly.

However I am not going to attempt MMA training for perceived threats. As you note: "There are no one size fits all solutions. "
 
People always think that learning to fight from the ground is for physically fit super badasses.

It's not.

It's for normal people who might, you know, trip and fall down sometime. (Like maybe even when trying to defend themselves from an attacker.)

Which last time I checked, definitely does include the old-guy demographic. It also includes the young, the middle aged, and everyone in between.

Especially for those who consider themselves less fit, less agile, or less active than average, this type of training can be a lifesaver. Just knowing how to draw the weapon and get good hits from awkward or unexpected positions puts you a long way down the road to competent self defense in stressful circumstances. And yeah, that goes for the abdominally enhanced as well as for the crossfitter.

I wish there wasn't so much ooohrrraaaagggghhhh toughguy nonsense that goes with good training. It's annoying, and it stops good people from even trying to solve their very real self-defense needs in a realistic way.

pax
 
I'll be frank. I don't envision bad guys appearing and busting a move trying to take me down in the Houston central business district with horse cops standing across the street, or want to flip out an MMA match while standing in the checkout lane of the grocery, or even the barbecue joint under Chase Tower. If they do I am far better positioned to shoot them then try to bust a Bruce Leroy on them (two internets if you get that without looking it up).
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I never envisioned or expected to be in any of the fights I suddenly found myself thrust into. Sudden criminal violence and the associated behavior of bad people are not always predictable, foreseeable or avoided with good intentions.

Using a firearm is certainly not "always" authorized by law simply because you don't want to get into a fight. Most fights end up on the ground at some point and knowing what to do can significantly increase your chances of limiting your potential for injury.
 
I'm a strong advocate of good training with firearms and unarmed skills, and although it's true that some people who could benefit from unarmed skills never work up the courage to try, there are still people out there like Zinc and others who for whatever reason know they aren't going to win a ground fight for whatever physical reason. It just isn't going to happen for them.

Sometimes you just have to do the best you can and go with what you have knowing you won't defeat every opponent who might jump out of the shadows, and hope that when the die are cast the one you encounter is one you can handle. That's true for all of us and our varying levels of skill.
 
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