Greenspan favours easier immigration
- Thread starter wingman
- Start date
Marko Kloos
Inactive
wingman, maybe you ought to put down your copy of "Das Kapital" every once in a while...it's probably getting pretty worn out.
Rich Lucibella
If you think that it was not private corporate interests that brought Stalin and Hitler into power, and kept them there as long as they lasted, you perhaps ought to study some history - instead of trying to ride my back with silly ridicule.
Yes; private corporate interests. They are the same ones that keep Bush's friend Comrade Blair in power in the United Kingdom, and the others elsewhere - including China, another ongoing private corporate enterprize with the sanctions of Comrade Bush.
Ditto the above. I'm on planet earth - But I can not speak for anyone else.
If you think that it was not private corporate interests that brought Stalin and Hitler into power, and kept them there as long as they lasted, you perhaps ought to study some history - instead of trying to ride my back with silly ridicule.
Yes; private corporate interests. They are the same ones that keep Bush's friend Comrade Blair in power in the United Kingdom, and the others elsewhere - including China, another ongoing private corporate enterprize with the sanctions of Comrade Bush.
Ditto the above. I'm on planet earth - But I can not speak for anyone else.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
LAK-
Let me ask you one simple question. Is there any living Political of Corporate figure, of major significance, that you trust and respect? And Why?
Rich
Let me ask you one simple question. Is there any living Political of Corporate figure, of major significance, that you trust and respect? And Why?
Rich
I agree with Greenspan to a point. The type of immigration we have now is what worries me. I go to a rather large University with a rather large engineering department as well as Agricultural component. When I walk around the Ag dept buildings, all I see is white faces. Not one immigrant comes here to learn how to feed his country. When you walk around the Engineering buildings, if you don't speak hindi or Madarin, you'd have a hard time getting directions to the water fountain.
Another thing I don't like is that the types of immigrants we have now aren't the types who come here and bring their families and want to make America their new homeland. They come here and work and send money back home and eventually go home with little intention of staying.
Maybe it was the Vietnamese boat people who were the last great wave of immigrants who came to make America a better place. Some Indians still come to make the country work, but if we want to make things better for America irrespective of cultures, we need to permit immigration of whole families and encourage immigration among those who will get an education and raise their families here as Americans.
I can bear the social welfare costs (I'm doing it now for the Illegal Mexican immigrants and most of those have no intention of staying). We will not be well served by allowing immigrants to come and then leave with no encouragement to stay. We will not be well-served if we don't allow their families in or we don't want to educate their kids when they come.
We need to attract the kinds of people who want to become Americans. Not who want to come, work and leave.
Just my opinion.
Another thing I don't like is that the types of immigrants we have now aren't the types who come here and bring their families and want to make America their new homeland. They come here and work and send money back home and eventually go home with little intention of staying.
Maybe it was the Vietnamese boat people who were the last great wave of immigrants who came to make America a better place. Some Indians still come to make the country work, but if we want to make things better for America irrespective of cultures, we need to permit immigration of whole families and encourage immigration among those who will get an education and raise their families here as Americans.
I can bear the social welfare costs (I'm doing it now for the Illegal Mexican immigrants and most of those have no intention of staying). We will not be well served by allowing immigrants to come and then leave with no encouragement to stay. We will not be well-served if we don't allow their families in or we don't want to educate their kids when they come.
We need to attract the kinds of people who want to become Americans. Not who want to come, work and leave.
Just my opinion.
Rich Lucibella
It depends what you deem "of major significance", and an answer is not as simple as asking the question. "Major significance" in terms of actual qualification and experience are a pretty superfluous qualification in the political world; to wit, one Hollywood actor who simply stepped right into the shoes of the governor of California at a time when the State was in a well-known and continuing financial crisis and other enormous problems.
Actual trust and respect have to be based on something tangible and tested. But in the political world, based on his explicitly expressed views - and actions - Ron Paul of Texas is someone I would cast a presidential vote for without a second thought. He is actively resisting the tide, which were he simply out for personal gain is not the way to go in the political world.
I am not closely familiar with any figures in the corporate world, but I could cite one who is up there in one of what I would call the least "trustworthy" of industries. Mel Gibson has proven once again that doing what you believe in, as opposed to what "sells", against the odds and advices of the "those who know", is worth doing afterall.
Those two are simply the first to come to mind for specific tangible reasons.
Ah, another political example would be Suzanne Gratia Hupp. Why? Her clearly stated views and actions towards certain legislation in the State of Texas express the kind of trust and respect for citizens expected of our government per it's founding ideology.
It depends what you deem "of major significance", and an answer is not as simple as asking the question. "Major significance" in terms of actual qualification and experience are a pretty superfluous qualification in the political world; to wit, one Hollywood actor who simply stepped right into the shoes of the governor of California at a time when the State was in a well-known and continuing financial crisis and other enormous problems.
Actual trust and respect have to be based on something tangible and tested. But in the political world, based on his explicitly expressed views - and actions - Ron Paul of Texas is someone I would cast a presidential vote for without a second thought. He is actively resisting the tide, which were he simply out for personal gain is not the way to go in the political world.
I am not closely familiar with any figures in the corporate world, but I could cite one who is up there in one of what I would call the least "trustworthy" of industries. Mel Gibson has proven once again that doing what you believe in, as opposed to what "sells", against the odds and advices of the "those who know", is worth doing afterall.
Those two are simply the first to come to mind for specific tangible reasons.
Ah, another political example would be Suzanne Gratia Hupp. Why? Her clearly stated views and actions towards certain legislation in the State of Texas express the kind of trust and respect for citizens expected of our government per it's founding ideology.
accordingtome
New member
if there was not all the illegals in the U.S. the jobs would pay better. ya its true people don't want to work for 6.50 an hour.. but they will work for 9 or 10. Greenspan like everyone else has a price. I guess someone found his. 
9mmsnoopy.. keep up the good fight
9mmsnoopy.. keep up the good fight
"if there was not all the illegals in the U.S. the jobs would pay better."
Yeah, and an onion here would cost $2.00 each. Now Americans with higher wages can afford those onions, but how we gonna sell an onion in Europe or Asia when we're competing on the world economy against people who can put an onion on the shelf for $0.85? As a matter of fact, who in this country is going to buy a $2.00 onion when right next to it is a $0.90 onion from Brazil?
OK- so now we are getting into a conundrum: Do we now place a sky-high tariff on all other countries to protect our own knowing that they will tariff our products which are already beyond resonable going prices? World markets are sticky things.
So by keeping illegals out, we've collapsed the US agriculture sector into bankruptcy, the housing market comes to a screetching halt, and lots of Americans doing the jobs that they do (supervising illegals) are out of work. Exactly how is that going to assist us in protecting American jobs?
Comparative advantage favors the United States in many things, but as laws tend to do, laws of economics apply both ways. Rich can probably fill in the third part of the equation but you have labor, capital, and another thing I forgot. You need all three. America has lots of capital and the other thing, but when it comes to menial back-breaking labor, we don't have a lot of that.
It isn't like we have tons of unemployment either. Last weekend's Houston Chronical had about 15 pages of help wanted for engineers, physicians, nurses, sales people and skilled trades. Most of those jobs were paying in excess of 10.00 per hour and many were paying significantly more (like x3). You probably won't get a lot of illegal aliens filling those jobs. If you're worried about jobs, then worry about getting an education that will fill a void. It appears with increased oil prices that seem like they will stabilize at better than $40.00 per barrel, chemical, petroleum and mechanical engineering might be a better choice than picking onions or bailing hay. Certainly more lucrative.
If after the taxpayers spent $60K to give you a primary and secondary education, if all you are qualified to do is pick strawberrries or rough frame a house, then you are at fault, not the Mexicans.
The Illegal immigration problem is exactly that, a problem, but it isn't the biggest problem we face. For as long as I've been alive (35 years), people have been talking about how the Mexicans are going to ruin our economy, and today I am living a better lifestyle than I could have imagined I would have 25 years ago.
I guess folks just need to gripe about something.
Yeah, and an onion here would cost $2.00 each. Now Americans with higher wages can afford those onions, but how we gonna sell an onion in Europe or Asia when we're competing on the world economy against people who can put an onion on the shelf for $0.85? As a matter of fact, who in this country is going to buy a $2.00 onion when right next to it is a $0.90 onion from Brazil?
OK- so now we are getting into a conundrum: Do we now place a sky-high tariff on all other countries to protect our own knowing that they will tariff our products which are already beyond resonable going prices? World markets are sticky things.
So by keeping illegals out, we've collapsed the US agriculture sector into bankruptcy, the housing market comes to a screetching halt, and lots of Americans doing the jobs that they do (supervising illegals) are out of work. Exactly how is that going to assist us in protecting American jobs?
Comparative advantage favors the United States in many things, but as laws tend to do, laws of economics apply both ways. Rich can probably fill in the third part of the equation but you have labor, capital, and another thing I forgot. You need all three. America has lots of capital and the other thing, but when it comes to menial back-breaking labor, we don't have a lot of that.
It isn't like we have tons of unemployment either. Last weekend's Houston Chronical had about 15 pages of help wanted for engineers, physicians, nurses, sales people and skilled trades. Most of those jobs were paying in excess of 10.00 per hour and many were paying significantly more (like x3). You probably won't get a lot of illegal aliens filling those jobs. If you're worried about jobs, then worry about getting an education that will fill a void. It appears with increased oil prices that seem like they will stabilize at better than $40.00 per barrel, chemical, petroleum and mechanical engineering might be a better choice than picking onions or bailing hay. Certainly more lucrative.
If after the taxpayers spent $60K to give you a primary and secondary education, if all you are qualified to do is pick strawberrries or rough frame a house, then you are at fault, not the Mexicans.
The Illegal immigration problem is exactly that, a problem, but it isn't the biggest problem we face. For as long as I've been alive (35 years), people have been talking about how the Mexicans are going to ruin our economy, and today I am living a better lifestyle than I could have imagined I would have 25 years ago.
I guess folks just need to gripe about something.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Shaking my head....
Let's pretend Greenspan had come out in favor of a Zero Immigration Policy.
Would everyone suddenly say, "Right on....Greenspan's The Man"? I think not. Rather, what I think we'd hear is some semi-intellectual rant about how that "proves" the Handlers' "agenda":
"The Untouchable Fed can block the wishes of a sitting President at a time when we know Social Security is broke. Just one more step in their obvious Plan to collapse of the American economy. Their ultimate goal? I've been saying it ALL ALONG: Nationalization of the bankrupt Health Care System, Forced Labor for our Dwindling Youth and Retirement 'Camps' for those no longer able to produce. Welcome to the 'Global Plantation' "
But then, that's what makes Conspiracy Whining so easy. One need never be right....one need only own an AM or Short Wave Radio....and a keyboard.
Rich
Let's play a little game:
Let's pretend Greenspan had come out in favor of a Zero Immigration Policy.
Would everyone suddenly say, "Right on....Greenspan's The Man"? I think not. Rather, what I think we'd hear is some semi-intellectual rant about how that "proves" the Handlers' "agenda":
"The Untouchable Fed can block the wishes of a sitting President at a time when we know Social Security is broke. Just one more step in their obvious Plan to collapse of the American economy. Their ultimate goal? I've been saying it ALL ALONG: Nationalization of the bankrupt Health Care System, Forced Labor for our Dwindling Youth and Retirement 'Camps' for those no longer able to produce. Welcome to the 'Global Plantation' "
But then, that's what makes Conspiracy Whining so easy. One need never be right....one need only own an AM or Short Wave Radio....and a keyboard.
Rich
accordingtome
New member
Rich..you must listen to Alex Jones..kjm
This is simply not true. Onions were never so expensive here, in europe and other industrialized countries before the days of dirt cheap labor, and agriculture isn't going to cease to have a market just because prices might rise alittle in some areas.
I have recently seen the red, orange and yellow bell peppers near the two dollar mark; when I remarked "who is going to buy bell peppers at that price" to a fellow who works at the local supermarket, he replied in effect, "Plenty; you'd be surprized. We sell alot of them even at that price".
Just as water finds it's own level, agriculture and other industries are not going to come to a grinding halt just because they have to start paying people more money to attract workers. And restaurant owners, janitorial services, construction and the other businesses that pay such miserable sums are not going to suddenly close their doors. They will charge alittle more perhaps, and many of them are going to take a cut in their profit margins.
Big deal. I have been in business in europe running a pub, and was very familiar with other businesses such as other pubs, bars, restaurants etc. I know what many of these places can turn over. Many of them turn a net profit for their owners equal to several times a better than average salary; having to pay a few dollars more per hour is not going to have them closing their doors or throwing up their hands in despair because they are going make a few thousand dollars less in the course of a year. The same can be said of most other businesses.
For those businesses where the owners are weeping and nashing their teeth because they'll to net $330K next year instead of $400K - and just refuse to continue because they do not think it is worth it - fine. Get out and get a job. And someone that has a job but would like the returns of a business can take your place.
One thing that might suffer a temporary setback is the level of waste I see so often. People buying stuff they have no need for and then literally throwing it away. This runs the gamut from cheap junk consumers items on up to food on their plates.
This is simply not true. Onions were never so expensive here, in europe and other industrialized countries before the days of dirt cheap labor, and agriculture isn't going to cease to have a market just because prices might rise alittle in some areas.
I have recently seen the red, orange and yellow bell peppers near the two dollar mark; when I remarked "who is going to buy bell peppers at that price" to a fellow who works at the local supermarket, he replied in effect, "Plenty; you'd be surprized. We sell alot of them even at that price".
Just as water finds it's own level, agriculture and other industries are not going to come to a grinding halt just because they have to start paying people more money to attract workers. And restaurant owners, janitorial services, construction and the other businesses that pay such miserable sums are not going to suddenly close their doors. They will charge alittle more perhaps, and many of them are going to take a cut in their profit margins.
Big deal. I have been in business in europe running a pub, and was very familiar with other businesses such as other pubs, bars, restaurants etc. I know what many of these places can turn over. Many of them turn a net profit for their owners equal to several times a better than average salary; having to pay a few dollars more per hour is not going to have them closing their doors or throwing up their hands in despair because they are going make a few thousand dollars less in the course of a year. The same can be said of most other businesses.
For those businesses where the owners are weeping and nashing their teeth because they'll to net $330K next year instead of $400K - and just refuse to continue because they do not think it is worth it - fine. Get out and get a job. And someone that has a job but would like the returns of a business can take your place.
One thing that might suffer a temporary setback is the level of waste I see so often. People buying stuff they have no need for and then literally throwing it away. This runs the gamut from cheap junk consumers items on up to food on their plates.
That sort of economic model works great when you have a free flow of goods and services (or in this case, labor). There certainly isn’t anything approaching a free flow of labor between Mexico and America. That economic model also ignores any hidden societal or cultural costs of foreign labor.
Technology.
Houston also isn’t the area with the highest number of illegal aliens. Check the unemployment rates and forecasts for Texas’ border regions. It isn’t hard to anticipate what would happen as the numbers of illegal aliens increase in a particular area.
Thanks A'henry. Technology was the third part.
I fail to see how the flow of labor isn't free. I don't believe it is difficult to go to Mexico and pick onions for the wages those folks pay. Just because nobody is doing it doesn't mean you cannot illegally go into Mexico (25KM) and go offer your services to some farmer. Mexico has a surplus of unskilled labor and we have a deficit. We have a surplus of unskilled jobs and a deficit of that type of laborer- hence the market achieves equilibrium.
The flow of goods is free as best as can be achieved between two sovereign nations. If you drive a Dodge or a VW chances are large parts of it if not the whole thing were built in Mexico. If you ever go to Mexico DF, you might see that most of the software and computers they are using are built or designed here. Ever see how many cheverolets are on the roads down there? Ever see what the Mexican Army flies, drives shoots and wears?
I still disagree with the assertion that prices won't be affected. When employing two people, you have the choice. If you pay an illegal alien $5.00 per hour, that is all you pay. Generally for your money you get somebody who is poorly educated, not very skilled, but who is very willing to work hard. Now because you have in most agricultural situations a need for mass labor at specific periods of time seasonally, how many native-born Americans are going to hop in a flatbead and drive around to do back-breaking labor throughout the country as migrant workers? What do you think the pay will be for that? In most cases you're not going to find a teenager who can do that since they generally have to go to school, so now you're trying to attract an adult US citizen into that lifestyle.
What kind of US Citizen do you think your $12.00 per hour will get? Do you think you'll get somebody with an excellent work ethic? How do you figure when the guy apparently did so poorly in school (work ethic again) that he is unable to do anything else? Remember that the hourly wage paid isn't the only price you pay to hire a US Citizen. Fica, SS, and compliance costs with the many regulations and laws (FLSA) drive the cost of that citizen far beyond the equilibrium price. Markets always seek equilibrium, it is just one of those laws of economics (it has been a few semesters but I do remember some of it).
This country needs labor and Mexico is willing to provide, but we have to figure out a way to turn these laborers into Americans who will eventually build a life here, not send all the money back to Mexico.
I fail to see how the flow of labor isn't free. I don't believe it is difficult to go to Mexico and pick onions for the wages those folks pay. Just because nobody is doing it doesn't mean you cannot illegally go into Mexico (25KM) and go offer your services to some farmer. Mexico has a surplus of unskilled labor and we have a deficit. We have a surplus of unskilled jobs and a deficit of that type of laborer- hence the market achieves equilibrium.
The flow of goods is free as best as can be achieved between two sovereign nations. If you drive a Dodge or a VW chances are large parts of it if not the whole thing were built in Mexico. If you ever go to Mexico DF, you might see that most of the software and computers they are using are built or designed here. Ever see how many cheverolets are on the roads down there? Ever see what the Mexican Army flies, drives shoots and wears?
I still disagree with the assertion that prices won't be affected. When employing two people, you have the choice. If you pay an illegal alien $5.00 per hour, that is all you pay. Generally for your money you get somebody who is poorly educated, not very skilled, but who is very willing to work hard. Now because you have in most agricultural situations a need for mass labor at specific periods of time seasonally, how many native-born Americans are going to hop in a flatbead and drive around to do back-breaking labor throughout the country as migrant workers? What do you think the pay will be for that? In most cases you're not going to find a teenager who can do that since they generally have to go to school, so now you're trying to attract an adult US citizen into that lifestyle.
What kind of US Citizen do you think your $12.00 per hour will get? Do you think you'll get somebody with an excellent work ethic? How do you figure when the guy apparently did so poorly in school (work ethic again) that he is unable to do anything else? Remember that the hourly wage paid isn't the only price you pay to hire a US Citizen. Fica, SS, and compliance costs with the many regulations and laws (FLSA) drive the cost of that citizen far beyond the equilibrium price. Markets always seek equilibrium, it is just one of those laws of economics (it has been a few semesters but I do remember some of it).
This country needs labor and Mexico is willing to provide, but we have to figure out a way to turn these laborers into Americans who will eventually build a life here, not send all the money back to Mexico.
In my area $12 would be above average much due to illegal immigration,
as for prices, there seems to be no price drop with illegals doing most
building, roofing. If the cost is less to hire should not the prices drop
also because under your theory prices go up if we do not hire them.
We have the labor it's on welfare but the idea to import many more people
and add additional load on this system doesnt make sense and Mr Fox banks
on the idea of people coming here will continue to send money home.
Here in WV, I'd be happy if I were making $12.00 per hour. I am presently not even close. Yes, yes...I realize in the end, it comes down to me. I could move, I could try and go back to school. Granted. But the notion that the only persons with "excellent work ethic" who will work for a low wage are Illegals from another country... well, I would try and come up with an appropriate superlative to express how I feel about that but... suddenly...I do not get paid enough. Not in my job description. Go ask that guy over there... sorry, I'm off the clock.[/I]
Knew I should have waited to check TFL until I got home from work. Now I'm totally depressed.
kjm
The same as you would have done in 1958, 1964, 1972 etc.
And when you find yourself with a lemon, you say; "We told you when you were hired what the rules were, what was expected, and how to do what is required. Here are your statements - signed by you - of understanding. Here is your copy of your separation notice. Our phone is ringing off the hook with people that want an hourly paid job at $14 in this area. We are giving your place to one of them. Here's what we owe you, here is the paperwork ... Cheerio."
The idea that there is a different proportion of lazy people to hard workers coming here from third world countries like Mexico as is trollop. We do have an ongoing and growing number of people on government handouts, and various groups of people both domestic and overseas being given money from the public purse. Eliminate the handouts, offer decent wages, make sure everyone knows where they stand, and people will work.
The same as you would have done in 1958, 1964, 1972 etc.
And when you find yourself with a lemon, you say; "We told you when you were hired what the rules were, what was expected, and how to do what is required. Here are your statements - signed by you - of understanding. Here is your copy of your separation notice. Our phone is ringing off the hook with people that want an hourly paid job at $14 in this area. We are giving your place to one of them. Here's what we owe you, here is the paperwork ... Cheerio."
The idea that there is a different proportion of lazy people to hard workers coming here from third world countries like Mexico as is trollop. We do have an ongoing and growing number of people on government handouts, and various groups of people both domestic and overseas being given money from the public purse. Eliminate the handouts, offer decent wages, make sure everyone knows where they stand, and people will work.
I think Y'all misunderstood. I meant the cost of hiring an employee (cost to the employer) at a little above the minimum wage is right around 12.00 per hour. That isn't pay to the employee, it is cost to the employer. Much of that cost is because of compliance costs with various and numerous legislation. So- now go advertise picking onions for 7.50 per hour and see who shows up.
I say that because they're paying $10.00 per hour (cash) in the valley now for illegal aliens to do stoop labor. Do you think anybody else shows up? You'd be hard pressed to find one Native-born US citizen doing it for $10.
It is simply much more expensive to hire Americans than to hire Mexicans. If $10.00 per hour isn't getting any to show up, how much do you think it will take to get 100% of your pickers to be US citizens? Short of an economic catastrophe, you just won't find Americans willing to work for those wages at those jobs.
I am sure that all of you here avoid the cheapest food in the grocery store and head right to the most expensive alternatives huh?
Oh, and I am sure that when you folks open up your own business, you want the kinds of people who have such enormous self-respect as to live off of welfare. It just doesn't pan out. The reasons people hire illegals is because they work, they work for a fixed price, and they are for the most part very honest. The folks out there who think the only cost of employing an American is simply the wage, hasn't spent a whole lot of time looking into the IRS regs, the FLSA legislation, and other pertinate legislation. It costs considerably more than just a wage.
Oh- and if you think there are lines of people who want stoop-labor jobs, then you haven't spent just a whole lot of time in the Rio Grande Valley. Go ahead and fire employees. Fire them, post a job, hire a new one, fill out the paperwork, register them with the state, and when they suck, fire them and repeat the process. All the while a position is going unfilled and your productivity is suffering. That's OK, because we are all in business to lose money, and exploiting competitive advantage isn't of the slightest interest to us!
I say that because they're paying $10.00 per hour (cash) in the valley now for illegal aliens to do stoop labor. Do you think anybody else shows up? You'd be hard pressed to find one Native-born US citizen doing it for $10.
It is simply much more expensive to hire Americans than to hire Mexicans. If $10.00 per hour isn't getting any to show up, how much do you think it will take to get 100% of your pickers to be US citizens? Short of an economic catastrophe, you just won't find Americans willing to work for those wages at those jobs.
I am sure that all of you here avoid the cheapest food in the grocery store and head right to the most expensive alternatives huh?
Oh, and I am sure that when you folks open up your own business, you want the kinds of people who have such enormous self-respect as to live off of welfare. It just doesn't pan out. The reasons people hire illegals is because they work, they work for a fixed price, and they are for the most part very honest. The folks out there who think the only cost of employing an American is simply the wage, hasn't spent a whole lot of time looking into the IRS regs, the FLSA legislation, and other pertinate legislation. It costs considerably more than just a wage.
Oh- and if you think there are lines of people who want stoop-labor jobs, then you haven't spent just a whole lot of time in the Rio Grande Valley. Go ahead and fire employees. Fire them, post a job, hire a new one, fill out the paperwork, register them with the state, and when they suck, fire them and repeat the process. All the while a position is going unfilled and your productivity is suffering. That's OK, because we are all in business to lose money, and exploiting competitive advantage isn't of the slightest interest to us!