I have a supply of frangible non toxic ammunition I got a year or so ago at a good price. I have been told by Federal LEO friends that frangible can wear out the barrel faster, but it takes allot of rounds. Then I heard about health issues with frangible dust. Now I was just told by a Glock rep about beach face and firing pin damage from non toxic green ammo, he stated it's a matter of when not if it will happen. I asked an instructor at Sig and he has seen breach face damage from non toxic ammo but not many cases. So the ammo I have is both frangible and green, the worst of both worlds! Has anyone else experienced problems with this.
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Green ammo harmful to firearms
- Thread starter Noreaster
- Start date
Humpf!
Frangible ammunition have bullets designed to fragment on impact to prevent ricochets. The bullets are typically brass shavings with a binder of epoxy. That does not strike me as particularly erosive to a modern firearm barrel. I suppose the epoxy might have some 'grit', but I find it curious a manufacturer would intentionally design a product of this type to damage a firearm.
Health issues with 'dust' of frangible bullet dust? I suppose that's possible; breathing dirt in air suspension isn't all that good, either. The lead in air suspension is fairly hazardous as well.
'Green' ammunition will cause damage to the breech face and firing pin of a Glock pistol? I understand one must NOT use lead bullets in Glock pistols as well. Since I have used lead bullets in all sorts of firearms for more years than I care to remember (let alone mention), I consider ANY firearm which is unsuited for lead bullet use to be inferior in design.
I've shot frangible ammunition through several of my handguns. In rather limited quantities, I admit. No discernible wear or problems, but I don't shoot a Glock.
One employs frangible ammunition only in those instances where damage to targets, back stop or whatever might be caused by regular ammunition. Confine your usage to those occasions and all should be well.
Frangible ammunition have bullets designed to fragment on impact to prevent ricochets. The bullets are typically brass shavings with a binder of epoxy. That does not strike me as particularly erosive to a modern firearm barrel. I suppose the epoxy might have some 'grit', but I find it curious a manufacturer would intentionally design a product of this type to damage a firearm.
Health issues with 'dust' of frangible bullet dust? I suppose that's possible; breathing dirt in air suspension isn't all that good, either. The lead in air suspension is fairly hazardous as well.
'Green' ammunition will cause damage to the breech face and firing pin of a Glock pistol? I understand one must NOT use lead bullets in Glock pistols as well. Since I have used lead bullets in all sorts of firearms for more years than I care to remember (let alone mention), I consider ANY firearm which is unsuited for lead bullet use to be inferior in design.
I've shot frangible ammunition through several of my handguns. In rather limited quantities, I admit. No discernible wear or problems, but I don't shoot a Glock.
One employs frangible ammunition only in those instances where damage to targets, back stop or whatever might be caused by regular ammunition. Confine your usage to those occasions and all should be well.
Some frangible ammunition has bullets made of sintered iron which is harder than most bullet or jacket material. I can't see it being a big issue since steel jacketed ammunition has been around for years. Maybe it's a little harder on the barrel, but I wouldn't worry about it.
Breathing nearly any kind of metal dust isn't all that good for you, but most people aren't standing so close to their backstop that they're inhaling the dust from the frangible bullets. Maybe some is blown off the back of the bullet on firing, and that wouldn't be wonderful to inhale--but I have to believe it's better than inhaling lead that's being blown off the back of a lead bullet.
I've not heard of problems with breechface/firing pin damage from lead-free primers. Offhand I can't think of a reason that would be an issue.
Breathing nearly any kind of metal dust isn't all that good for you, but most people aren't standing so close to their backstop that they're inhaling the dust from the frangible bullets. Maybe some is blown off the back of the bullet on firing, and that wouldn't be wonderful to inhale--but I have to believe it's better than inhaling lead that's being blown off the back of a lead bullet.
I've not heard of problems with breechface/firing pin damage from lead-free primers. Offhand I can't think of a reason that would be an issue.
Edward429451
Moderator
Sounds like good range ammo to me.
Bluestarlizzard
New member
Hum...
Well, I've only had a couple boxes of that Winchester "clean" stuff quiet a few years back.
The possibility of damage to gun wasn't why I swore the stuff off. The dud round per cylinder was the problem.
This seems like an urban legend. Until someone comes along with hard proof (in otherwords, extensive range testing on multiple firearms) I'd remain skeptical.
Very skeptical.
Well, I've only had a couple boxes of that Winchester "clean" stuff quiet a few years back.
The possibility of damage to gun wasn't why I swore the stuff off. The dud round per cylinder was the problem.
This seems like an urban legend. Until someone comes along with hard proof (in otherwords, extensive range testing on multiple firearms) I'd remain skeptical.
Very skeptical.
Destructo6
New member
The frangible ammo that is used at FLETC is extremely high pressure.
I don't see it causing any problems with barrel wear, but the pressure and slide velicities will probably casue problems elsewhere.
I'd run it though a duty gun, no problem, since it's their gun anyways and will replace it if breakage occurs.
My own gun? No.
I don't see it causing any problems with barrel wear, but the pressure and slide velicities will probably casue problems elsewhere.
I'd run it though a duty gun, no problem, since it's their gun anyways and will replace it if breakage occurs.
My own gun? No.
All use causes some damage. Handling causes some damage. Dry firing causes some. Practice presentations cause damage. This is like worrying that bug strikes will damage your Corolla- yeah, maybe- but is this problem #1?
Shoot it with green when you have to. Shoot it with reloads when you can. Carry factory ammo when you carry.
What's the "buy-out" point? Where did the cost of ammo exceed the cost of the dispenser? You can stop worrying there.
Shoot it with green when you have to. Shoot it with reloads when you can. Carry factory ammo when you carry.
What's the "buy-out" point? Where did the cost of ammo exceed the cost of the dispenser? You can stop worrying there.
g.willikers
New member
I was thinking the same thing.
If you need to shoot frangible, then that's what to do.
Compared to the cost of ammo, a gun can be downright cheap, these days.
A few thousand rounds downrange can exceed the price of a lot of guns.
Maybe they could even be considered just a tool, eventually a disposable one.
If you need to shoot frangible, then that's what to do.
Compared to the cost of ammo, a gun can be downright cheap, these days.
A few thousand rounds downrange can exceed the price of a lot of guns.
Maybe they could even be considered just a tool, eventually a disposable one.
The breech face erosion issue is well-documented, by several police departments. The cause is quite possibly the "green" primers.
Lead styphnate is a major ingredient in priming compound. It is an accellerant, promoting ignition of the compound when the anvil crushes the compond.
The earliest mercuric primers had ground glass in them to accomplish this, prior to the discovery of lead styphnate for the purpose.
Lead-free ammunition was developed for use in indoor ranges to reduce lead emissions, which aside from being harmful to human health can be explosive under the right conditions. Naturally, the enviro-nazis have seized upon it as yet another solution to world pollution, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
All the above is fact. Some of the rest of this post is conjecture on my part. I have asked one "suit" and one engineer, both employed by a major ammunition producer, about this specific issue and whether it is due to the "green" primers. It is the first time either has avoided answering a question I put to them.
On the one hand, primer blow-back should be leaving evidence of same on the case head and/or primer. Such has not been readily apparent in the "studies" I am familiar with. On the other hand, I have a Glock 19 with deep pits eaten into the breech face, that suddenly developed after several thousand previously uneventful rounds. You guessed it; I shot some "green" ammo through it, less than 100 rounds. It was WinClean NT (for Non Toxic, I can only presume).
BTW, the latest revelation on the web regarding this issue has to do with erosion of the striker tip itself. Mine looks okay, but the breech face is truly shocking.
My money is on the primers as the culprit. They had to do SOMETHING to replace the lead styphnate. Still, I have a really hard time believing that less than 100 rounds of tree-hugger ammo ate up my breech face... but something did.
As an aside, those lead free bullets left a streaky residue in my bore that was exceedingly difficult to remove.
Needless to say, I won't be firing any more of that crap in my guns, ever again.
.
Lead styphnate is a major ingredient in priming compound. It is an accellerant, promoting ignition of the compound when the anvil crushes the compond.
The earliest mercuric primers had ground glass in them to accomplish this, prior to the discovery of lead styphnate for the purpose.
Lead-free ammunition was developed for use in indoor ranges to reduce lead emissions, which aside from being harmful to human health can be explosive under the right conditions. Naturally, the enviro-nazis have seized upon it as yet another solution to world pollution, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
All the above is fact. Some of the rest of this post is conjecture on my part. I have asked one "suit" and one engineer, both employed by a major ammunition producer, about this specific issue and whether it is due to the "green" primers. It is the first time either has avoided answering a question I put to them.
On the one hand, primer blow-back should be leaving evidence of same on the case head and/or primer. Such has not been readily apparent in the "studies" I am familiar with. On the other hand, I have a Glock 19 with deep pits eaten into the breech face, that suddenly developed after several thousand previously uneventful rounds. You guessed it; I shot some "green" ammo through it, less than 100 rounds. It was WinClean NT (for Non Toxic, I can only presume).
BTW, the latest revelation on the web regarding this issue has to do with erosion of the striker tip itself. Mine looks okay, but the breech face is truly shocking.
My money is on the primers as the culprit. They had to do SOMETHING to replace the lead styphnate. Still, I have a really hard time believing that less than 100 rounds of tree-hugger ammo ate up my breech face... but something did.
As an aside, those lead free bullets left a streaky residue in my bore that was exceedingly difficult to remove.
Needless to say, I won't be firing any more of that crap in my guns, ever again.
.
kilimanjaro
New member
So-called 'green' ammo is environmentally bad, and produces toxic waste. You may ship via common carrier (so far no hazmat fees required), to me, for proper, safe, disposal. The projectile will be removed from the cartridge while inside of a sealed chamber by a mechanical process, called 'shooting', which also completely consumes the propellants, and collected for recycling.
Did you notice gas escaping out of the slide or between the barrel and breech while firing?The breech face erosion issue is well-documented, by several police departments. The cause is quite possibly the "green" primers.
There should be little or no gas coming back out of the primers toward the breechface.
Very interesting stuff--I wish someone would do some careful studies to nail this down and explain the mechanism that's casing the erosion.