Greedy dealers

In my area, there are good deals and bad deals at all the gun shops. Supply and demand can drive the prices. I spread my business around as best I can without getting beat up. I have purchased firearms or ammo from about all the dealers around, and that includes W-M & K-M. I have a couple of favorites, but I have made my face familiar to all of them, and as a reasonably loyal customer to all, I have made some really fairly priced purchases. Sure, I shop around, the P-32 I bought was 30 bucks less at one shop as opposed to the others.
I have also been pleasantly surprised by a dealer who came off as rather gruff at the gunshows, and a little expensive. During a face to face transaction at his shop, he was pleasant, informed, and exceptional at customer service, and sold my pal a new Star Firestar Plus for waaaay less than the others wanted.
I have also used another gunshop to install sling swivels for me and he charged me for the parts only, and fairly, but at the same time, his price was akin to gouging on 7.62x39.


The bottom line is, after my long, boring post, use your dealer as much as you can. There will probably be a payoff somewhere down the road.

------------------
So many a'holes-- so few bullets!------
Ford Fairlane :D

[This message has been edited by tatters (edited December 25, 1999).]
 
I personally have bought guns at gun shows, over the net and locally. While the local dealer was initially higher, I found that as I became a regular customer, the prices got better. Much like any other business, I found that the best prices and service is reserved for the best customers. The standard customer can expect the standard prices and service.

My opinion is that the local dealer wants to get a good price for a good product. If I'm not willing to pay that price, that's my business just as the price they want to charge for a gun is their business.
 
My friend has a FFL so I buy all my stuff through him. He is pretty reasonable on firearms. If he has it in stock it usually is only about 10% over wholesale. He even lowers his prices on guns at gunshows. If you want something out of SGN or something he doesn't have in stock, he charges a $25 fee for the transaction. He does however price gouge on some things like high cap mags. That bothers me some, but he doesn't charge more than what everybody else is selling them for. If you want to piss him off though, just tell him you saw the same item cheaper somewhere else. He will then probably tell to buy it there and to leave him alone. In my town there is two gun shops and their prices are just insane on some items. For instance, one shop is selling russian 7.62x39 for $4 a box and actually had the gall to put a $800 price tag on a postban Colt AR-15 lower reciever(This is in the midwest not Kalifornia). If I want a good laugh I usually go there and check out their prices. I still don't know how they stay in business since they always have a 20% to 50% mark-up on all there stuff. I guess you just have to look around to find respectable dealers.

[This message has been edited by jason h (edited December 26, 1999).]
 
On a given day, I can drive about 5 miles
on Loop 410 in San Antonio and find a
$200 difference in price on a common
Glock.

Be an informed consumer.

Wish I could do that with medical care.
 
For me there have been two solutions. 1. Get to know a policeman and find out who his FFL dealer is. Police are always looking for a good deal to save money and can usually hook you with someone who will take delivery for you locally with the proper introduction. 2. Go to a gunshow and find the guy who is selling the cheapest pistols in the place. Usually he is not there to make alot of money. He is there to talk and belong. Cultivate him. It will make him feel good and you to. I've found these guys to be the the salt of the earth. The older, the better. Most of these guys will jump at the chance to take delivery for you and make a quick buck for doing nothing. If you feel the need, try to buy something from him. I had a fellow almost give me a pistol off his table, he was so happy for me to spend a few minutes talking to him about his favorite subjects. Makes him feel needed and useful. If it sounds like I'm using this guy, well I can see how you might think that, but I make it a point to visit him at every show. He gets a little companionship and makes a few bucks, and I get some great deals and learn from his wisdom.
 
AK9, I don't know where you get the idea that FFL holders are "doing nothing" when they accept an out of state firearm for a customer. First, they assume ALL of the responsibility for the transaction. Second, they assume the responsibility for collecting sales tax that the "customer" is trying to weasel out of. Check with your state's tax commission. Yep, you owe the tax and it is your responsibility to pay it on out of state sales. If you are caught, the sales tax will seem like a great bargain.
If it's such a breeze and so little work, why don't you get an FFL and try it for a few transactions? I only do it for my best customers, since I have never made anything on this kind of transaction.
At our local gun show, there are "dealers" who have never heard of the '68 GCA. When one died recently it was found that he had thousands of guns registered to him that he had sold without paperwork. In another recent transaction, a LEO friend bought a nice like new pistol that was confiscated when he tried to register it. Seems it was stolen.
A recent poll of dealers in this area showed that the average markup on a new gun is 10%. Today, that is not even coffee and doughnuts money. If a customer does not buy an accessory or two with it, the dealer actually loses money.
How do those out of state "dealers" get their guns so cheaply? Yeah, so would I!
 
Dear Mr. John Lawson, I was merely responding to the comments concerning greedy dealers and ways to lower the costs of legally acquiring firearms. I said nothing about acquiring firearms from the internet. I made no comments about not paying taxes on those weapons. I have paid the legal taxes on every firearm that I own. I take it from your comments that you might hold an FFL(and/or a LEO or attorney or writer). Would it be fair for me to assume that you are one of those "greedy dealers" making an unreasonable profit (in some peoples opinion)? Of course not! You work hard for your money or I'm sure you think you do. What self respecting person doesn't? People in a free market economy charge for their time and trouble as well as the possible liability and that gets passed to the consumer accordingly; but it is up to the market to determine what is fair and equitable. If one charges too much for ones sevices, then one gets forced out of that market. I make all my purchases within the state to avoid the tax liability problems you have pointed out. I am certainly no tax expert and would not propose that anyone not pay the required taxes(although I think you will find the tax positions of the states concerning collection of said sales tax does vary widely). As far as record keeping, what records the FFL keeps and what he does not is the business of the FFL. He is licensed by the government and subject to audit for that purpose by the BATF. As you said, he assumes the liability, therefore he should check the particulars of the firearm as part of the acceptance pocedure if he feels uncomfortable. I do not believe that I deal with disreputable people. The folks I deal with ALL have storefronts during the week and come from all parts of the state and locally to attend the shows. They lower their prices to compete and attract customers they might not have access to otherwise. Any attempt at "setting prices" would be against the law (couple of fancy terms come to mind). Instant checks are done at the show, whether you pay upfront or put the weapon on layaway. You and the weapon get checked. All these guys know each other and deal with each other on a daily basis in some cases. The good ones prosper and the sleezy ones get a no welcome sign hungout. There are usually more people trying to deal at these show then there are tables. The promoter does a good job of screening the dirtballs and can pick and choose the exhibitors. Case in point. I recently bought the Marlin guidegun. At my gun club I could buy that same rifle for $525 used. I get 10% off as a member. That brings it down to $475 (roughly)plus tax. I went to several local gun stores and no one had one, but did tell me "That's a great deal! We are having trouble getting them. No way we could sell it for that." Go on line and find one for $395 nib(won't say where). That weekend I go to our local show. Find 1 nib for $455 plus tax. Comes to $490. I buy. Half hour later while still looking around, I come across another one for $445 at another dealer's table. As I am kicking myself in the butt for $10, the guy asks me why I am ticked, and I tell him that I just paid $10 dollars more for the same gun. Guy whisks price off the table and raise it to $500. Says the only reason his was $445 was to compete with the the guy I bought the rifle from. Only 2 in the house. I came by 20 minutes later and that one was gone. Went to the club the next day and that one was gone. Did I get a good deal? I think so. Am I happy? You bet! Could I have scammed out of paying the taxes and bought off the net? Probably. Would I have been comfortable with that transaction? NO! Was I stupid? To some people, yes. Could I have gotten any of these weapons transfered for a great price- $25 or less? If I needed to. But I chose not to. Maybe "nothing" was a poor choice of words and for that I do apologize. Perhaps I should have said "nothing that he isn't already doing to accomodate a customer and his business". The fact that a policeman allowed himself to get into this situation is a little disturbing. Did the FFL who did the transaction just assume that the policeman did the check? He ceratinly had the means and access. Maybe he needs to find a new guy to handle his transactions? I'll bet the guy who did the transaction isn't getting much police business these days, unless its to watch him. Register? In my neck of the woods we register cars, boats, and marriages. Firearms are strictly voluntary. Last time I checked, registration was something we were trying to resist. Of course I'm not from The Peoples Democratic Republic of _______ (you fill in the blank). My humble and sincere apologies for the length of this discourse, and any hurt feelings. And to you, sir, I did not mean to insult your honor, dignity, or professional knowledge. Please accept my regrets and apologies if I have. I certainly do not mean or want to upset anyone's rice bowl. I'm signing off this thread.

[This message has been edited by ak9 (edited December 29, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by ak9 (edited December 29, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by ak9 (edited December 29, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by ak9 (edited December 29, 1999).]
 
John, you must be in Calif. There is no registration of guns in Texas. We freely sell in individual sales through newpaper ads, at gun shows, and on the internet. BATF will not issue an FFL to a 'dealer' who does not have a business address anymore, so now we have some gun show dealers without FFL's thanks to BATF.

In Calif. if an out of state company ships an item in, the state of Calif will go after the company shipping the item fot the tax. In Texas and Oklahoma it is common practice to order, cameras, computers, audio equipment, video equipment, and guns from out of state to avoid the taxes. I saved over $160 on an AR-10T this way.

Some prices from dealers that would be out of state to you, Dr David Avery in McKinney, Tx 1) Walther PPK stainless in .32 ACP $309, 2) Kahr K40 Covert $389, 3) Walther P99 $479-$499, 4) small framed Glocks $429. From Bachman Pawn & Gun in Dallas a Kahr MK9 $399 or a SIG P239 for $429. K-Y Imports or CDNN a used SIG P225 for $329 and used P220 or P226 for $379. CDNN in Abilene, Tx an Arcus 9mm HP $189 and a Steyr SSG for $1000. Heritage Firearms in Austin, Autauga MkII $299. How do they do it? Easy, good business practices. Buying in quanity, working to find good deals rather than ordering everything from one distributor all the time, forming buying groups to get quantity discounts, and taking advantage of booking programs from distributors and manufacturers. I just bought my son the Autauga for Christmas for $299, they had sold nearly 60 of the guns since Dec 1 at that price, and while I was there I bought the ammo for full price.

This is a competitive market, customers are going to shop for guns the way they do for any high ticket item. Look for the best deal. Those who can compete in a free market economy by offering the best service for the price, like Sam Walton, will prosper. Those who cannot will fail. I always suggest dealers get customers wherever they can. Offer them a service to keep them coming back. If a customer wants a dealer to handle a transfer and the customer does all the work of calling, ordering, and mailing, all the dealer has to do in Texas is fill out the 4473 and either check his CHL or run a NICS check. The Autauga I bought took 10 mins to complete the transaction. If you allow for another 10 mins work to log in and out of the bound book you are looking at a total of 20 mins to do a transfer. I think $20 for 20 mins work is MORE than fair pay. I doubt if many people on this board make a dollar a minute or $60 per hour or $120,000 per year. The funny thing is that that $20 is PURE profit. The dealer risked no money and just pushed paper for $60 an hour. What a deal! When the pre-NICS days we had dealers at gun shows that all they did was handled the background checks and waiting period for out of area dealers, they charged $10 a gun and were happy to do it. They made thousands of dollars every weekend and never sold a gun. All paper work. If you try to get more for a gun than anywhere else would sell it, you may lose that customer and more if he tells his friends that you are a rip off. If you do, don't get mad. It is your decision whether or not to make the sale. This has been a great year for gun sales. The best since 1994 and this months gun sales are 20% over Dec of last year nationwide. This will not last, as much of it was due to Y2K and the fear of more legislation, making many of those buyers 'one shot wonders'. The loyal repeat customer that you cultivate is who will patronize your establishment in the future. Don't treat them fairly and give them the same deal they can get elsewhere and you will lose them.
 
When you pay extra for that Rem 870 or anything for that matter you pay for:
1.) The 4 Freedom Arms in the display case that have been there for 2 years.
2.) The rack full of expensive O/U shotguns in asst ga.
3.) All those boxes of odd-ball calibers.
4.) The rack full of asst rifles that have a limited sales appeal.
5.) The store front.
6.) The 4 inch Python that has been there since time began.
7.) The inventory that certain mfgs require to maintain a certain level of dealer status, "dog" items included.


[This message has been edited by RAE (edited December 29, 1999).]
 
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