Greedy dealers

E

Enigma

New member
It seems like it is either this or that...you just cannot win. We all know how much our government works against us to keep us from getting the firearm of our choice....seems like the dealears out here in Kalifornia are putting in their "two cents worth " against us consumers in favor of their own self interest. Just thought I would check and see if any of you are experiencing what seems to be developing here. Here is the problem: If I find a really great deal on the internet that is offered by an established dealer and have it shipped to a FFL dealer it has been my experience that they all want a 20% charge to be added to the price of my purchase! And some of them expect to collect state sales tax on an item that was purchased in another state! This seems TOTALLY UNFAIR on their part! Especially when you consider that this practice does NOT happen at any of the Gun Shows out here. I can buy a gun from any dealer and have it transfered to a local dealer with only a minimal but FAIR charge.These guys are trying to KILL e-commerce. Does anyone have any thoughts on this situation?

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Join the Fight....save OUR Rights!!!
 
Do you notice "dealers" dropping by the wayside very quickly. If you purchase something out of state, say for $500., the same purchase at the dealer will cost you about $40 more (TAX) So many people buy things out of state to avoid tax, meaning a lower overall price. What would you do if you were the dealer? Next time you go into a nice restaurant, ask them to cook the eggs you brought in with you for nothing!!!!!
In So Kal. in the last 4 years, over 14 dealers have bit the dust. Go figure!!!!

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From my cold dead hands.
 
Fourdiamonds....This has nothing to do with tax only. I am talking about prices on the same gun being 100.00 less for the same gun out of state, before taxes! I would MUCH rather pay the State tax and be able to see what I am puchasing than have to get it somewhere else.
I would PREFER TO SUPPORT my local dealer but when you have this great of price difference I think it is worth it to go elsewhere. You have heard of competition? I also wouldnt mind paying a dealer a surcharge for his services it seems that 10% would be at least reasonable...I just would at least have a fair shot at gettin a competitive price.
 
Keep in mind what the dealer is really (always) doing. He is providing you with a place and a means to purchase what you want. My personal dealer only deals with 3 wholesalers and will buy from whoever is lower on a particular item. Now bear in mind not all wholesales stock the same items. That's why some stores are "authorized" dealers of say S&W, Glock, Sig, etc. So if only one of the wholesalers stocks a product that is the price that must be paid.
Now add in the Gunshops markup. That's what keeps his doors open and food in his belly.

If you have to have something and the price is fairer on the internet buy it, but don't moan about the charge for using his FFL. Also bear in mind the more purchases you make on his FFL the less likely he is to charge you more.

If paying his price is too much in the end, pay your $300 and get your own. Then you can buy from whoever you want. AND have to deal with BATF on a constant basis.

In the End SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL DEALER.

GATORANT MODE is off.

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Root Hog or Die Poor
 
You should find out all the transfer fees, etc. in advance. If you don't like the deal, go elsewhere. Here abouts, FFL holder charge anywhere fro $5 - $50 to do a transfer, but a several folks have pointed out, they are in business to make a living. Look at the total cost of the deal, if it's lower than what you can find the gun for locally, you're still ahead. Have you tried to negotiate with the local dealer? I've used the aqpproach that I can get it mail order from so-andsso for $x, but by the time I pay shipping, ins., xfer fees, it's $x+y. I tell them that I prefer to deal locally, can you come close? Most will at least try.

What I HAVE been noticing locally, is price gouging - every time there's a big gun-grabber threat/story in the media, prices seem to go up and the they use the ' old get 'em while ya still can' routine on the yokels. There seem to be enough chumps that bite to make it worth their while (Go figure).

Although I'm a hard shopper and an aggressive negotiator, and some days I do better than others, but I realize if I want them to be there for service, supplies, etc., they've got to make a decent living. Find a dealer you can work with, pay a fair price for GOOD service, and avoid the @$$holes, the market will weed them out.
M2

[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited December 22, 1999).]
 
Dealer prices vary consderably. I almost always deal with an out-of-state dealer, even though I have to wait to get the gun transfered to another dealer in my state. Even with the transfer costs, I save money.

This dealer normally marks up the price only 10 percent. The biggest dealer in my area(and state) usually has a markup of from 20 to 30% depending on demand for the gun. Many times dealers have captive or uninformed customers, and can get away with socking it to their customers. Stay informed and ask around for the best dealer and prices in your area.
 
Ive got a customer who without fail will come in saturday morning spend 4 hours getting the best price for this and best price for that. I price everything at 5% over wholesale. Then he wants top dollar for his junk he wants to trade and wants me to work up some loads at $7.00 per 50 because he can get them in this catalog for....
Ive got another customer who comes in on a regular basis and tells me what he wants lays down his money takes his gun and sends me another customer.
As a dealer I have have my preferences to.
E-comm! Get serious! Gun shows! Get serious. Bet your sweet butt the best deal is the deal you do in your own town with your best dealer. Pay your taxes and keep your money in your own community.
I cant believe in the long run that someone will not accomodate you.
Greedy Dealers...no doubt there is lots of evidence of that. Dont do business with them!
Greedy consumers....lots of evidence of that to. Believe me I go for the best price I can get, but I dont try to jerk of my community and I dont try to jerk of my local gov't. I really believe that we still have to pay to play!
And I love to play!
 
Go head with your big bad self TomD!

Here's my spin.

Yeah . . . you can save some money on the Internet and I'm surprised if you can't find an FFL transfer person for $5-$20. That's the fee here in Seattle with the FFL's who only serve as transfer agents - don't own gun shops.

BUT, when you buy sight unseen, are you getting the best used Sig P226? Or just the one they had laying around their office?

Maybe the gun was traded in with four hi-cap mags and the e-guntrader is only giving you two. He plans to sell the other two mags for a profit.

That's where face-to-face brick and mortar relationships with your local gun dealer are valuable.

Most of the fellas here in Seattle, I've bought guns from . . . WSI, Wades, GunTown, GunWorks, etc. I know the owners and their staff by first name. I have several friends in each shop that tell me what the gun orginally came in with, what's in the back waiting the 30-day period before sale to the public, and what deals they can cut. One of them always gets my business.

Are you a member at your local range? I get a 10% discount on new guns there and save tons on my holsters, reloading components, and other supplies plus I get free gun rentals of 250 guns.

Yeah, maybe you can save yourself $50 or $75 on the Net.

But what if you bought a Glock 17 factory refurb on the Net from J&G for example, they're supposed to come with two (17) round hi-caps. J&G may only give you one hi cap and then sell you the other at a deal wink wink for $50-$60. Still a deal since hi-caps go for $75. Or what if if came with three? J&G used for illustration only . . . probably a good dealer.

Likewise, I have heard numerous stories on the Net that some e-dealers can and do sell people used guns as new. I know several of my Seattle dealers who will not sell it as new even if it has 50 rounds through it. They mark it down as used and knock $50/$75 off of the new price.

Hey everybody's got to eat and I'm willing to pay a little more and lots of times less for the gun and most importantly, the advice and knowledge of people who see and hear reports about these guns day in and out.

I usually get way better deals locally than on the Net and I get the pick of the litter on used guns too.

If you bought a couple of guns from your local dealer and they got to know you, you'd be surprised what deals they will work with you.

Just like every other relationship, it takes work and trust. No relationship, no history, no deals. That's life.

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The Seattle SharpShooter
If it can't shoot jacketed rad turds powered by rodent farts, I ain't gonna shoot it!
 
I have been frustrated by the price difference here in California as well, but my solution is to deal with the only reasonable shop in the county (we have 3 others run by yahoos). I just bought a USP40 compact and paid WAY too much. My choice. But I got them to throw a whole bunch of free range time in. Costs him almost nothing, and actually has value for me. I got to see the gun before buying it AND I knew the deal was legit. Shoots 2" groups at 10 yards. I'm happy! I figure that you evaluate the deals you can make and then decide whether they work.
saands
 
Dealers??

It depends.

I've seen good deals at shows, retail, on-line and in the Shotgun News. When I've approached a dealer with a hey i saw this ad in Shotgun news i've gotten some blank looks.. and others who have said yeah sure i'll handle your transaction for cost + 10%.

As a consumer you owe to yourself to get the best price and the best value, sometimes that means buying over the counter, sometimes that means buying on-line.

Case in point, if I'm buying NEW i I don't mind ordering something sight unseen.. if its being shipped to wal-mart I can refuse it.. if its shipped to my dealer buddy I fel worse about him taking on the inventory if I'm not satisfied. If I'm buying used/surplus I'd MUCH rather thake a look at the item first hand and close up in a shop or at a show. You never know WHAT a suppliers "grading" of a particular firearm really is.

There are plenty of unsrupulous dealers 9cars guns whatever) Colt rumors go flying and a 1991a1 goes up to 700, shcumer farts and a 15 round carbine clip that was $6.95 last week is now $40 and marked RARE.. yeah what ever.

There are also dealers who will take thier time, answer your questions, tell you their policies UP FRONT and those are the dealers I like.

Best price doesn't mean best service, and just because its expensive doesn't mean you will get the best service. Service is a lost art in many trades, I like dealers who remember that service is PART of the sale.

My 2¢

Dr.Rob
 
FWIW, my local dealer seems to steer a middle course. While several other gun shops in the area have come and gone, he's stayed in business by shopping for wholesalers' specials and passing the savings along to his customers. OTOH, he does not give anything away, and he does not hesitate to make a little extra money when he can do so with a reasonably clear conscience. For instance, when Colt prices went up recently, he increased the prices on the Colts that were already in his case by the same amount. That meant a little windfall for him, but to his credit he let anyone who'd expressed a previous interest in the guns have them at the old price. Also, he did not raise his Colt prices to the level of gouging, as others in the area did (his 1991A1s went from $460 to $500, while at least one other shop raised the price to $650!).

As far as trades are concerned, I wouldn't say that he gives top dollar. But his customers don't generally feel ripped off, either.

So, as I say, he steers a middle course. Maybe the best thing I can say for him is that he has customers who have been regulars in his shop for 15 years or more.
 
I guess Tom hit it on the head. I've seen a lot of people with the attitude that "hey I'm doing you a favor by having you order this for me". And it gets annoying to think that someone who buys something once in a while (if ever) thinks they should be entitled to a dealers "best price" when regular dedicated customers buy from him all the time.

Gator

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Root Hog or Die Poor
 
I don't have any problem with paying a fee for him to accept and transfer the gun to me. A fee of $30-$50 isn't totally out of line.

On the other hand, more than about $50 is out of line. The dealer didn't have to worry about inventory overhead and whatnot, didn't have to do any selling, so much over $50 and you're getting screwed.

Oh, I wouldn't try this with any gun the dealer regularly stocks. That would be a blatant slap in the face.
 
There are slimeballs in every business. Including the gun business. I deal with a local shop for all of my gun purchases. They don't have a problem with me purchasing via the web and handle the transfer for a flat $20. They also know that the guns I purchase over the internet are no longer manufactured and are typically collectors items. If it is current manufacture I let them order it for me and they might make 10% off the sale. They are good to do business with because they are honest and know I won't give my business to other dealers in the area. I also send them a lot of new customers from the gun club I belong to. Just like anything else, if you develop a good relationship with a good business owner keep it going. I can't believe the gougers that charge 10 or 20 percent just to do a transfer. There are a few in my area that do that AND treat the customer like a piece of sh.t, too. Needless to say I don't do business with these clowns.
As for California, I lived there in the early 80s in the San Diego area and most of the dealers back then charged full retail for everything. I see it hasn't changed a bit.
 
I have, IMHO, the best dealer in the country right in my town...he will order any gun for 10% over wholesale and will accept transfers at NO cost. I buy as much from him as I can and reccommend him around because I sure as hell want him to stay in business.
 
Depends on the situation, where I shoot-I don't buy any guns (too pricey, too small of a dealer to offer good deals)-whatever, I buy targets from him, range fees, occasional rounds. Handles my transfers for $25.

Another dealer, 20 minutes away, gives good enough deals that I'm willing to buy from them.

Out of state- I buy most of my guns out of state, cheaper prices (its business they wouldn't have anyway, so they don't mind doing a cheap deal). Also, if the gun is super expensive-I want to save on the tax.

The new Titanium Gold DE I want= Locally wants $1450 + tax, out of state $1300 & no tax. Thats a big difference. So it really depends on the situation.

[This message has been edited by JG (edited December 22, 1999).]
 
Many dealers will not accept shipments for guns bought elsewhere that are available in the normal trade channels.

Almost all will accept guns that are not available that way. The best charge a flat rate, not a percentage. A percentage deal may be fine on a $59 clunker; it's not so good on a $12000 English double.

Either establish a good relationship with a dealer or be prepared to pay. Someone compared this to walking into a restaurant with a couple of eggs and asking the chef to cook them for free.

I once worked in a service station and you would be surprised at the number of xxxx's who came in with oil they bought at a discount store and wanted us to change the oil for free, since we didn't have to pay for the oil. Since most of the profit on an oil change is from the oil, we told them to try another place. Who wants that kind of business?

Jim
 
I've noticed that the gun market is not very efficient. For instance, at a gun show I've seen the same item being sold (or at least offered for sale) at two different prices on tables only twenty feet apart.

I don't see many wealthy gun dealers, either. The guys who price their wares at market rate plus 40% might be greedy, but they aren't very smart -- they'll sell two guns for every five or six sold by the competition. I guess they've gotten into the mindset that "Since I won't make many sales, I'd better make all I can on each one". Maybe they rely upon their ability to succeed with a BS sales pitch to the occaisional naif who wanders in. (And I've seen such poor souls, too -- they know nothing about guns but decide they want one today, and one gun shop must be as good as another.)

What's more common than greed, I think, is simple stubbornness. Gun dealers seem to enjoy doing things "their way" even more so than the average person, and so they often run their businesses not to maximize profit, but to support their habit of telling such fairy tales as how a Colt .45 will knock a man off his feet, why a snubby .38 won't hit anything beyond ten feet, and so on. (One dealer I've seen at gun shows has a worn GI M16 mag that he has marked "Genuine M16 Mag - $45". I'm sure he has a very entertaining story to explain why his 60% condition mag is worth two and half times as much as 75% condition mags at other tables.)

I apologize if this sounds like a flame. I'm on good terms with most of my local gun dealers and I try to support them. I support a dealer's right to run his or her business as he or she sees fit and if I disagree, I simply bite my tongue and spend my money elsewhere. I'm amazed that some of these guys stay in business, but they do, so they must be doing something right.
 
Around here I have been fortunate. In Oklahoma there is Fred Baker, who is a big distributor, he has a good selection and good prices. In Texas, CDNN in Abilene, Dr David Avery in McKinney, Bachman Pawn and Gun in Dallas, Guns Warehouse in Houston, and Heritage Firearms in Austin all have good prices. I bought a NIB Kahr from Dr. Avery for $389 this past summer and am paying $299 for an Autauga II from Heritage for my son's Christmas present. When I buy used there are many dealers to choose from. Going rate here is $10 - $20 for a transfer. That is if you do all the work, making the phone calls and addressing the correspondence, so all the dealer does is sign for the shipment, put it on his books and transfer it off. About 10 mins work, less if you have a CHL. $2 per min, that is $120 per hour, they should do it all day for that. Now don't expect to be able to walk into a shop with an ad from Shotgun News or Gun List, tell the dealer you want it, and expect to pay $10 bucks over. If he has to do the leg work, you can expect to pay for it. We do get the rip offs here too, like the guys selling 30 round AK mags for $30 claiming that they banned the importation of them. As far as taxes go, Calif. is different. Even if you buy from out of state, expect to pay Calif. 'use' tax in lieu of the state sales tax, it is the same either way. In other states if you do the deal and send the money off yourself, then you are buying from out of state, if you give your money to the dealer and have him order it for you, expect to pay sales tax.
 
I went back through some of my old reciepts from guns that I had bought retail in california the S.D, MiraMesa, Poway area dealers (15yrs back) and I suppose if there had been such a thing as E-comm back then I'd been buying outta state to. But thinkin back, as I established a relationship with a dealer it got less painful.
The problem I have with gunshows is I know for a fact that BATF is gathering all the "examples" they can to prove gunsshows should be shut down. Illegal sales! The thing is they arent busting anyone. It seems like they are (BATF) just gathering data.At some point in time we are all going to pay the price. Right now if the govt could I know the price of an FFL would quadzipple! or "sorry the quota" is filled or sorry no more gunshows. I dont have the opportunity to visit a lot of the shows but the ones Ive attended locally are feeling a little "ify",I did enjoy the shows out west, SanDiego Cty, Orange Cty..to long ago! But things were different then to.
My FFL means a lot to me and I think some of the shows really put the business in general at risk.
I do keep track of what all the local dealers are selling for and if I can sell a piece for 5-10% over wholesale and about the same under the average thats how I try to do it. (im still waiting for that $12000 English double, lord will I be flexiable, but he's still going to the dealer who worked with him over time!)
Transfer fee's? $50.00?? my my my. that feels a little "ify" to. JT in washington mentioned $10 to $20. I think thats in general a fair price if one is going to charge to transfer.Ive never had the experience. I wonder how long it will take the Fed's to regulate the rate for that to! I personally dont need any more Govt help. Have you ever tried to read the BATF Regs book?





[This message has been edited by TGS (edited December 23, 1999).]
 
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