Grandma Got Run Over by Obama: SSA Finalizes New Gun Prohibition Rule

4102 said:
The SSA is not "determining" if the applicant is mentally defective.

True but mental defects can cover a wide range of things. For now anyway, it seems confined to people who have help managing their finances. That aside, what bothers me is how the government gives us our own money back with a host of unsavory strings attached...
 
As I understand the law, and I am not a lawyer, it requires that a person be adjudicated as insane. The definition is not knowing the difference between right and wrong, a danger to oneself or others.
A court of law is the only place such adjudication can be made and it must be made by a jury.
 
The definition is not knowing the difference between right and wrong, a danger to oneself or others.

Under all of the regulatory and case law interpretations of "mentally defective", there is no requirement that you are unable to distinguish right from wrong. You can be a prohibited person as a mental defective even if you can tell right from wrong.

Under all of the regulatory and SOME of the case law, there is no requirement that you are a danger to yourself or others. You can still be adjudicated "mentally defective" without any such finding right now.

A court of law is the only place such adjudication can be made and it must be made by a jury.

As the law stands now, it does not require a court of law or a jury. An administrative hearing is sufficient in all jurisdictions. In some jurisdictions, they don't even have to grant you an adversarial hearing with a right to have counsel present (which is also the stance ATF takes).
 
Here is the purchase form 11 f about the adjudication process and the directions of answers:

Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective
(which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful
authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs)
OR
have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

Directions to Question 11 f:
Question 11.f. Adjudicated Mentally Defective:
A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:
(1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.

So if you are a danger to yourself or others, or are severely retarded or otherwise incapable of signing a contract, or found not guilty by reason of insanity or adjudicated as insane in a court of law you aren't able to own, control or use a firearm.
 
So, in order to get the government to allow your family to deposit your checks and pay your bills, they have to judge you as mentally defective. Pretty harsh way to accomplish a fairly trivial function, isn't it?

I doubt if there is a single balanced checkbook in our entire office.
 
Kilimanjaro,
That is what they would have you believe.
All it legally takes is to give someone a power of attorney so they can pay your bills and manage your funds. There are a lot of very wealthy people who do that because they simply don't wish to spend their time on those matters.
Your stock broker manages your account, Auto bill pay - your bank manages your funds to pay your bills.

The action taken by Olbambam's pen has not been tested and is a completely unlawful and frivolous act of rebellion. It would be very difficult to actually win a case like this in court. we have rights - not privileges.
 
kilimanjaro said:
So, in order to get the government to allow your family to deposit your checks and pay your bills, they have to judge you as mentally defective. Pretty harsh way to accomplish a fairly trivial function, isn't it?

I doubt if there is a single balanced checkbook in our entire office.

They are not proposing that they will report everyone to NICS who has a representative payee. They are proposing that:

"Under the proposed rule, we would identify, on a prospective basis, individuals who receive Disability Insurance benefits under title II of the Social Security Act (Act) or Supplemental Security Income (SSI) payments under title XVI of the Act and also meet certain other criteria, including an award of benefits based on a finding that the individual’s mental impairment meets or medically equals the requirements of section 12.00 of the Listing of Impairments (Listings) and receipt of benefits through a representative payee."
 
In my usual disdain for baloney no matter which way it leans I leave you this video to watch as a means of some insight rather than the old normal of one person twisting something up to get others spun up. Baloney helps no one, except maybe those who need a sammich.

https://youtu.be/do2PXIGaYc8

In short, "They" are not gonna stop your social security checks because they gound out you own firearms.
 
In no manner do these rules violate the Second, Fourth, or Fifth Amendments to the Constitution:

With these rules, we are seeking to satisfy our obligations under
the NIAA, which requires Federal agencies to provide relevant records to
the Attorney General for inclusion in the NICS. While the rule addresses
reporting requirements, it is the Federal Gun Control Act, not the Social Security Act, that governs when a person can possess a firearm. The criteria we will use under these rules do not focus on one age group, such as the elderly or recipients of Social Security retirement benefits, nor do they categorize and treat individuals who are similarly situated differently. Consequently, these final rules do not violate principles of equal protection.
[…]
Nothing in the rules we are issuing today is inconsistent with the scope of
the Second Amendment as interpreted in Heller. Accordingly, we have not made any changes to the rule in response to comments asserting that our actions were inconsistent with an individual’s Second Amendment right.
[…]
Affected individuals will have the opportunity to apply for relief from the Federal firearms prohibitions imposed by 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4) at any time after our adjudication has become final. We have clarified our rules to make that point. We will follow the requirements of the NIAA and apply principles of due process in determining applicants’ entitlement to relief from the burdens imposed by inclusion in the NICS.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2016-12-19/pdf/2016-30407.pdf

Consequently, that an individual might be determined disabled by the SSA due to mental illness does not mean his medical records, or his determination to be disabled due to mental illness, will be ‘automatically’ placed in the NICS database.

Moreover, should an individual be designated as a prohibited person pursuant to a NICS background check due to mental illness, he has the right to appeal that determination as anyone else subject to a denial.

Therefore, just because someone is approved for Social Security benefits based on a mental illness does not mean he will be denied the right to possess a firearm; and should an individual’s final determination be that he is indeed a prohibited person, it will come after being afforded his comprehensive due process rights, consistent with current Second Amendment jurisprudence.
 
As I understand the information given, the title & focus of the discussion that, it is SSI who is creating a gun prohibition rule, is FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

SSI is reporting certain data to the Attorney General. Which, they are NOW required to do by law. After that point, their involvement ENDS.

Consequently, that an individual might be determined disabled by the SSA due to mental illness does not mean his medical records, or his determination to be disabled due to mental illness, will be ‘automatically’ placed in the NICS database.

The determination of what goes into the NICS database is made by the DOJ, not SSA.

Moreover, should an individual be designated as a prohibited person pursuant to a NICS background check due to mental illness, he has the right to appeal that determination as anyone else subject to a denial.

Therefore, just because someone is approved for Social Security benefits based on a mental illness does not mean he will be denied the right to possess a firearm; and should an individual’s final determination be that he is indeed a prohibited person, it will come after being afforded his comprehensive due process rights, consistent with current Second Amendment jurisprudence.

Point of order here, If you are determined to be a prohibited person, your rights are denied. Once cannot "appeal" or "apply for relief from" something that has not happened.

It is incorrect to state (or imply) that your rights are not denied because there is an appeals process, or that your rights are not denied until the appeals process is complete. IF you win the appeal your rights are RESTORED. You cannot restore something that was not lost. So, legally, and effectively, from the moment the system logs you as a prohibited person, your right is denied.

I do not know if this specific issue should be presented as a malicious act, a parting shot by the departing administration, but absent clear evidence of that, I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by presenting it as such.

This is, literally, an instance of the government TRYING to close the "loophole" (aka "cracks in the system") which is something that we all demanded they do!

The problem seems to be with the way it is being done, and is being magnified by the way it is being reported as being done.

This is a can of worms, because we are dealing with gun rights, privacy rights, bureaucratic systems, and various laws.

There have been more than one of the mass killers "in the system" to one degree or another before they went on their murder rampage. The system didn't stop them. Sometimes the system didn't stop them because it failed. sometimes, it didn't stop them because it was operating correctly.

About 30 years ago, the mass murder at a Stockton CA school set off the whole "assault weapon" hysteria that resulted in the mess we are still dealing with. It happened, despite the system working correctly. The killer went through California's 15 day waiting period & background check twice, purchasing a handgun on two separate occasions.

The killer went to Oregon and obtained a semi auto AK pattern rifle. (he could have gotten the same thing in California at the time, there is no evidence he went to Oregon to avoid any CA law)

The killer was receiving SSI checks because he was "mentally disabled and unable to work". At the time, SSA was FORBIDDEN to give that information to the state of California, BY LAW. Doing so would be a violation of his medical privacy rights.

The system, as it existed at that time, worked correctly. Since then, things, including laws, have been changed. Now, SSA is required to report certain things.

And here we are, with people unhappy about those certain things, and what is done with them.
 
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