Govt Sued Over Liberty Dollars Seizure

apr, the basis is apparently this set of instructions on how to use Liberty Dollars, posted in the other thread:

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.
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Apparently, calling it a PRIVATE currency and then distinguishing it from US government money is actually trying to pass it off as US government money, which is a crime. (Maybe this explains why there have been no charges filed?)
 
While I agree that the government should ramp things up, if they do plan on charging him then the property should stay where it is.
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For how long? The seizure of all the assets of most businesses for 7 months would spell the end of the business, whether it's a mom and pop store or Wal Mart. Is the government just free to bankrupt businesses with the allegation of criminal activity and the resulting seizure of property, and then never back up the allegation in court? If seven months is a death sentence for a business, isn't that the same result as "never"?

On the day they seized the property, if they had the evidence to do that, then they should have used that same evidence to charge some person with a crime. This business where the government gets to imply a crime, seize now, and prove (or not) later is wrong. If after two years of investigation, they developed enough evidence to seize this property, they should have had evidence enough to prosecute someone. If seven more months pass and they STILL have not prosecuted anyone, that is a serious problem with the system, and it needs to be fixed. IMKO.
 
In the instructions on how to introduce merchants to the Liberty Dollar, never once did it say the LD was authorized by the US Government. They are simply explaining how to offer an alternative instrument of barter. If the merchant declines to accept this piece of silver, pay with the paper "legal tender" Federal Reserve Notes.

I could carry around boxes of ammo and try to barter with merchants, but they might not need ammo right now.

Sure the LD coin has a $20 marking on it. But dosen't every product in the store have a dollar value listed on it.
 
Putting "20 dollars" on a piece of silver was stupid in a couple of ways. One, it was asking for trouble from the US government, and he got it. Two, the silver itself will soon be worth more than $20 if we keep printing money, which seems likely. Putting Ron Paul on some of the coins turned out to be a lightning rod as well. Overall, I'd say they should have done something...anything...else with all that silver, but that's beside the point.

The point is: it's illegal if a crime occurred. Let's see the crime and the trial. Otherwise, the property should be returned at the very least.
 
plea bargain

is there any possability there was a plea bargain in this fiasco. Many time people give up things rather than going to jail. For example it is very common for hunters and fisherman caught doing some poaching to forfeit their truck, boat and equipment rather than face a trial.

It always seems that these issues have more than what simply appears in a news story. And even more when the issue is posted in summary on a thread. Do we have all the information or is it just what we are being spoon feed?

In any case here was an interesting view/story from November 2006: http://www.gata.org/node/4497. While I can see the potential for the silver coins (1 troy oz of silver) I just can't see anything other than a promise for the notes. Remembering history brings back thought of the hundreds of banks, companies and individuals who issued notes that were backed by nothing more than the paper it was printed on.

Just becasue there is a claim that the government took it and won't give it back is far from a full disclosure of the claim.
 
Your post in the old thread:
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I stand corrected... sort of. There are two issues here. First is the coining of money. Second is the use of Paul's image without his consent. In this thread I have been talking about the issue of coining money.

Apparently, calling it a PRIVATE currency and then distinguishing it from US government money is actually trying to pass it off as US government money, which is a crime. (Maybe this explains why there have been no charges filed?)
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Yes. When you stamp a monetary number on a coin and intend it to be used as legitimate currency, that is a crime regardless of what you say.


For how long? The seizure of all the assets of most businesses for 7 months would spell the end of the business, whether it's a mom and pop store or Wal Mart. Is the government just free to bankrupt businesses with the allegation of criminal activity and the resulting seizure of property, and then never back up the allegation in court? If seven months is a death sentence for a business, isn't that the same result as "never"?

On the day they seized the property, if they had the evidence to do that, then they should have used that same evidence to charge some person with a crime. This business where the government gets to imply a crime, seize now, and prove (or not) later is wrong. If after two years of investigation, they developed enough evidence to seize this property, they should have had evidence enough to prosecute someone. If seven more months pass and they STILL have not prosecuted anyone, that is a serious problem with the system, and it needs to be fixed. IMKO.
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And as I said before, there is ALREADY a process for nuthouse to get his property back. If he feels that he has been wronged, then take it to court. You are acting as if he has no recourse. Thats simply not the case.

Just becasue there is a claim that the government took it and won't give it back is far from a full disclosure of the claim.
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+1
 
is there any possability there was a plea bargain in this fiasco.
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Plea bargains usually occur when charges have been filed against a person, and they agree to plead guilty to a lesser charge. The article said no charges have been filed.
 
When you stamp a monetary number on a coin and intend it to be used as legitimate currency, that is a crime regardless of what you say.
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The intent I saw in the instructions posted earlier was to offer these coins as an alternative to the government currency, not to pass them off as government currency. And if there was a crime, shouldn't there be a speedy trial? Is 7 months with no charges speedy?

And as I said before, there is ALREADY a process for nuthouse to get his property back. If he feels that he has been wronged, then take it to court.
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Actually a group of people are suing to get their property back, as pointed out in the thread title, the topic post, and a previous reply to you.

You are acting as if he has no recourse. Thats simply not the case.
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No, you're entirely missing my point. I am acting as if these property owners who are suing the government have a good point, namely that their property can only be illegal if there was a crime, and if there was a crime, there should be a speedy trial. How long should they wait, if half a year is not enough? A year? Two? Four? How long?
 
The intent I saw in the instructions posted earlier was to offer these coins as an alternative to the government currency, not to pass them off as government currency. And if there was a crime, shouldn't there be a speedy trial? Is 7 months with no charges speedy?
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A rose by any other name...


Actually a group of people are suing to get their property back, as pointed out in the thread title, the topic post, and a previous reply to you.
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Good, then lets let the courts decide.


No, you're entirely missing my point. I am acting as if these property owners who are suing the government have a good point, namely that their property can only be illegal if there was a crime, and if there was a crime, there should be a speedy trial. How long should they wait, if half a year is not enough? A year? Two? Four? How long?
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No I got that. What you seem to be missing is that there is already a venue for these people to have their grievances heard. If the government is dragging its feet, then they can light the proverbial fire.

You are trying to make this into some huge controversy. Its not. Either they will get their stuff back, or charges will be filed. The irony in all of this is that he may get what you are advocating.

Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
 
The point was to use them in active barter, which is a hassle if there's no starting point in dollars to do so. People have been divorced from value-backed currency for so long that they need to be re-educated on what money is all about.

However, in light of the issue here they've changed the bullion to have the term "MSRP" - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.
 
If the government is dragging its feet, then they can light the proverbial fire.
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"If"? As in, you can't decide whether 7 months is a long enough time to come up with an indictment? I am still wondering just how long this would have to go on before it would become obvious even to you that the government is dragging their feet? If they grabbed my property and held it for 7 months, all the while implying I am a criminal without charging me, I would have had quite enough.

Maybe it would help if I refused to acknowledge more than one victim of this seizure, and it would help more if I attempted to dehumanize the one victim I acknowledged by calling him names on the internet.:rolleyes:

Either they will get their stuff back, or charges will be filed. The irony in all of this is that he may get what you are advocating.
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You forgot the third alternative: they will get their stuff back, charges will be filed, or this will wind up as a civil asset forfeiture case, not a criminal one, and the charges will not be against any individuals, but against "guilty" property.
 
When it comes to competing currencies or non payment of taxes you can always expect the government to take extreme action.

Concerning asset forfeiture, I'm sure most of you realize that if you have a substantial amount of cash on your person and no immediate proof from whence it was obtained, under the right circumstances, it can and probably will be seized. Then it will be up to you to prove where you got it and if it was lawfully obtained.
 
The 'note holders' have NO standing to sue for the return of property confiscated from someone else.

They need to go after von Nothause to pursue the return of their property.

von Nothause can then go after the feds for the return of HIS property.
 
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Why am I not surprised at this person being arrested and not charged with a crime? If we do it to people from other countries who aren't Americans, it's a very tiny step to start doing it to our own citiz .... eer, subjects.
 
$20 LD = ~$6.636 FRNs
$50 LD = ~$16.59 FRNs
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I realize that they were trying to create their own fractional reserve currency, but I prefer buying these instead.

prodPlatEagle01.jpg

prodGoldBuff01.jpg

Platinum is currently $2017.00 an oz and gold is $879. Yet the mint marked them $100 and $50 respectively. Odd.
 
That is odd. Are they really one ounce, or has the price varied since the time they were minted?
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Yes, they are really an ounce and they currently strike them. You can get brand new 2008 ones right now.
 
"If"? As in, you can't decide whether 7 months is a long enough time to come up with an indictment? I am still wondering just how long this would have to go on before it would become obvious even to you that the government is dragging their feet? If they grabbed my property and held it for 7 months, all the while implying I am a criminal without charging me, I would have had quite enough.
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You keep missing my point. I don't care if the government is dragging their feet and neither should you. The only person who should is nuthouse because he is the final and only arbiter of what is too long. He might think 4 months is too long or he might think 8 months is fine.

Either way, when he feels that this has gone on long enough he has a process available to get his property back. He could have sued 3 months ago, or 2 months ago, or 4 months ago. The ball was in his court in regards to that.

So, while I would like to see some efficiency on the part of the government (just like I would like to see a ferarri in my garage) I'm not going to hold my breath. When the government seizes your property, you are the one who is going to have to get on top of the situation and keep pushing. Thats the case every time someone is involved in a good shoot and their weapon gets taken. You shouldn't be shocked that its happening here where its very likely nuthouse was breaking the law.
 
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