Govt Sued Over Liberty Dollars Seizure

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publius42

New member
Some of you may remember this thread from last November, about the seizure of some coins. Well, the end of June is near, and here's an update.

The Justice Department had decided that the coins, many of which bear the familiar symbol of Lady Liberty and the phrase "TRUST IN GOD," were being illegally marketed as government-sanctioned currency, according to the sworn affidavit of an FBI agent.

The creator of the coins, Bernard von NotHaus, who lives in Miami, claims that the federal government is trying to shut down production of his liberty dollars, as the coins are called, because of the competition they pose to the greenback. In recent years, his precious metal coins have outperformed the dollar, whose value has plunged in relation to gold.

The raids in November were the result of a two-year undercover investigation of Mr. Von NotHaus and how he sold liberty dollars. The Justice Department has not followed up with any criminal charges against Mr. Von NotHaus or the regional distributors of his coins.
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So we have punishment of a crime without the need for any criminal trial. Who needs a big messy trial when there is property to be seized?

If there was a crime, someone should have been charged at some point in the past seven months. If there was no crime, the government should return the money. The problem is, that's no way to fight a drug war, and we'll never get rid of this kind of asset forfeiture abuse without getting rid of drug prohibition.
 
I did a whole thread on the value of the dollar and know one cared. They are content to not see the root causes of monetary inflation and watch as the buying power of their hard earned money continually plummets.

claims that the federal government is trying to shut down production of his liberty dollars, as the coins are called, because of the competition they pose to the greenback.
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They can't have competition especially competition that actually has a relatively constant value. People might wake up and realize that it is not prices and value thats going up but the value of our fiat currency that is going down.

As long as we continue to let banks create money from debt and the government continues to borrow what should be its own money at interest our economic woes will continue.
 
They are content to not see the root causes of monetary inflation and watch as the buying power of their hard earned money continually plummets.
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So invest in something that actually produces value.
Like a business.

We are so far past the available precious metals in econimic size it is simply NOT possible to have a 'hard currency' as all the gold bugs want.

The Federal Reserve system was set up to ISOLATE the currency from the government.

If you do not like deficit spending, give congress additional control over the money supply and watch what happens.

Does Weimar Republic ring a bell?
 
Nate, I cared. Just didn't post.

Brickeye, precious metals are not the only thing which can be used to back a currency. It's not as if the choice is either gold or the promises of politicians regarding the behavior of future politicians. There are other options. Kilowatt hours of energy, for example.

BUT, this is not a hard money vs fiat money thread. It has become an asset forfeiture issue.

"Illegal" money seized 7 months ago. NO ONE CHARGED WITH A CRIME? How did it get to be illegal without a crime?
 
I did a whole thread on the value of the dollar and know one cared. They are content to not see the root causes of monetary inflation and watch as the buying power of their hard earned money continually plummets.
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I read the whole thing. What you say begs the question of whether or not powerful people and institutions have disproportionate influence on America politic. People will not accept your premise of the FED without a shift in presuppositions of what it means to be an American. I was cheering you on all the while betting on the windmill.

I find it fascinating to see people who on one hand roundly proclaim the natural rights of man (as it relates to firearms), constitutionally constrained government, small government and federalism YET at the same time see no problem with control of the currency by a comparatively small handful of people who are unelected and unaccountable. I see people who get all huffy over the Kelo decision (as well as they should) YET are ignorant of legitimate questions over whether or not the Federal Reserve Act was properly ratified or whether the 16th Amendment never was properly ratified. Even more seldom to you see posters who see any linkage between the 16th amendment and FED Act.

The debate over fiat currency and hard currency has just started and is destined to grow in fervor as inflation goes ballistic and / or liquidity dries up.
 
While I agree that the govt should not just take things at will, if Mr. Nuthouse wants his stuff back, there is a process for it. Is there anything suggesting he's pursuing this?
 
For the most part, the plaintiffs had possessed bearer certificates for the silver liberty dollars that were being warehoused in Couer d'Alene, Idaho, at a mint. The mint, Sunshine Minting, is one of the sites that federal agents raided.
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They will probably be found to not have standing.
If they want their "certificates" redeemed they should sue von NotHaus.
 
I think suing the government to get his money back counts as following the process of suing the government to get his money back.

How about talking about the process of seizing it in the first place.

I mean, these people were committing FRAUD! STEALING money from hard working people! STAGE2, you and several others were quite clear on that point.

Now, doesn't it seem to you like in the last seven months, someone should have been charged with the crimes you were so sure had been committed?

And given that that did not happen, does it seem right that the government has held the money for these seven months? I mean, they're holding it because it's ILLEGAL money, right?

OK, either the money got up and committed some crime, or some human individual did. I think that if the government is going to act as if some human individual has committed a crime, then they should charge some human individual with a crime and convict him in court.

Is there anything suggesting the government is pursuing this?
 
Lets see if I understand the issue

a group of individuals decided to mint their own currency with a promise that the coins are worth some unknown amount of gold or silver. Then these same individuals sell these coins for those worthless Federal Reserve Notes. Sounds like a real great plan if your into duping a group of idiots who would purchase such crap.

Sounds more like a bunco scheeme than anything else. :cool:

Just how many of you posters are willing to cash in your retirements for a handful of these magic coins? :rolleyes:

I have a couple of those Franklin Mint Pirate series collector coins around here some place. One of my tenants spent his rent money on buying them. Then while he was getting evicted he tried to pay his rent with them. He offered to pay his rent by giving me the coins. It was a great deal: he would pay his rent with coins worth $ 99 but at half their value. [Sorry dummy but I don't accept Franklin Mint coins in-lue-of American money.] I got mine for free when he left two of them behind after his eviction.

A $ 99 value he purchased for $ 19.95 each. I'll sell them for only $ 10 each nce I find them in this mess.
 
Lets see if I understand the issue
a group of individuals decided to mint their own currency with a promise that the coins are worth some unknown amount of gold or silver.
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Nope, not close. The promise is that they contain a known amount of silver.

But the structure and merits of the currency are not the issue of this thread. To discuss that issue, ask Antipitas to reopen the old thread, if you have new info, as per his suggestion when he closed that thread.

The issue here is the seizure of property coupled with the allegation that crimes have been committed, followed by the keeping of the property and NO CHARGES, LET ALONE CONVICTIONS of any crime.

Evidently, we are just supposed to trust the government when they say that these are bad people, with bad, illegal money, and it should be taken for the common good. I guess I'm a kook, because I don't have that level of trust in government. I want to see criminal charges and convictions if they are going to act like there has been a crime.
 
The issue here is the seizure of property coupled with the allegation that crimes have been committed, followed by the keeping of the property and NO CHARGES, LET ALONE CONVICTIONS of any crime.
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Sounds like something that happened here in Colorado about a year ago.

A guy and his wife had their home raided for suspicion of being a meth lab. Turned out the cops were wrong. But the cops did find several Marijuana plants, baggies, scales, etc.

They confiscated everything. But never charged them with a crime. The couple sued. It seemed that they had a license to grow medical marijuana. And since the warrant did not state that they were looking for marijuana, a judge ordered the police to return the plants and everything else they confiscated from the couples home.

The really funny part. When they got their plants and baggies of weed back from the police, it was all dead and decayed and moldy. The couple sued the police for damages wanting them to compensate them for their loss and the judge agreed!!!!:)
 
Good, now perhaps I will get my property back.

No fraud as far as I am concerned. My old $10 Liberties are now worth about $17.50! My Liberty Dollars have appreciated while my Federal Reserve Notes have depreciated. That sure sounds fraudulent to me!!

In addition to Liberty Dollars, I also have the Liberty silver certificates which were each redeemable for a certain WEIGHT in silver. When did those certificates become worthess? When the government stole the silver backing them. Now perhaps their value will be restored.
 
Sounds like something that happened here in Colorado about a year ago.
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Sounds like that couple was very lucky that back in the 1990's Bob Barr and Henry Hyde managed to get the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform bill passed, and Bill Clinton signed it. I don't have much good to say about any of those guys, but will never forget their part in rolling back a bit of drug war tyranny. See Executive Privateers for further reading on this.
 
I mean, these people were committing FRAUD! STEALING money from hard working people! STAGE2, you and several others were quite clear on that point.
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I don't think I ever said he comitted fraud. What I and several others here said was that he was illegally coining money.


Now, doesn't it seem to you like in the last seven months, someone should have been charged with the crimes you were so sure had been committed?
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Probably. Though the government has never been a paragon of expediency.


And given that that did not happen, does it seem right that the government has held the money for these seven months? I mean, they're holding it because it's ILLEGAL money, right?
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Depends. While I agree that the government should ramp things up, if they do plan on charging him then the property should stay where it is.


Is there anything suggesting the government is pursuing this?
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Is there anything suggesting they aren't?
 
Amendment 6 suggests to me they are not pursuing this...

6. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed; which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
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Again, it has been seven months since the raid, over two and a half years of investigation so far. I know "speedy" is a subjective term, but shouldn't they have at least gotten around to the part about locating an "accused" and informing him of the nature and cause of the accusation by now?
 
STAGE2 said:
I don't think I ever said he comitted fraud. What I and several others here said was that he was illegally coining money.
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Your post in the old thread:

This guy was coining $20 silver pieces. By doing that he is coining money and illegally so because the value of the particualr coin may be more or less than $20 depending on the value of silver on the open market.

Add to that the fact that mr nuthouse personally advocated passing these off as actual money and you have several violations of the law.

If this guy was perfectly fine with misappropriating someones identity for profit then fraud isn't something that out of the realm of possibilities.
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Several violations of the law, you said. Fraud is a possibility, you said. Maybe. Let's see some charges and convictions. So far I see stuff seized, but nothing to back up that other stuff you and others were saying.
 
If there is anyone who thinks that NorFed selling Liberty Dollars was somehow fraudulent or otherwise criminal, would you please explain why.
 
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