GOVERNMENT INFORMANT: DELTA FORCE INVOLVED IN WACO SHOOT-OUT

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http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>**World Exclusive**
**Must Credit DRUDGE REPORT**

WASHINGTON -- A former government officer has told investigators that
members of the secret Army unit Delta Force said they participated in a
shoot-out during the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound in
Waco, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

The witness, according to congressional sources, has already named names
-- and will soon offer his account under oath!

The development caused panic and confusion at the top levels of the
Justice Department and the FBI over the holiday weekend, leaving one top
official scrambling for details.

FBI Director Freeh has demanded a full briefing, one agency source
divulged late Monday.

Developing...

Meanwhile, congressional investigators are growing convinced that
infrared film taken by an FBI surveillance aircraft at 9,000 feet on the
final day of the Waco standoff does appear to show U.S. armed forces
firing into the church compound.

"We are looking at the footage frame-by-frame... most of us have grown
convinced that it does show snipers unloading from the rear of a tank,"
an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee told the DRUDGE
REPORT.

Former FBI agent Richard Schwein, a supervisor at Waco, said charges of
government gunfire were "absolutely false."

"False, absolutely false," he said on FOX NEWS SUNDAY. "No FBI agent
fired any rounds from their weapons at Waco. There were no Delta Forces
or special operations soldiers in an operational capacity at Waco.

"And everyone on our side, and the FBI's side, were in armored vehicles,
so I don't know how you'd have films of anybody firing into the back of
the building. No one was on foot, because we had no body armor that would
stop the rounds they were firing."

WAIVER WONDER

Use of active military personnel against civilians without presidential
decree is a violation of federal law.

Late last month White House spokesman Joe Lockhart first told reporters
that he had no information on the waiver issue.

[August 26, 1999; Thursday]

Q Joe, why was the Army's Delta Force present on the scene the day that
Waco burned?

MR. LOCKHART: I would refer you to the Justice Department. I don't have
information on the Delta Force one way or the other.

Q The reason I asked is because since the law prohibits the military
being used against civilians, I wondered whether the White House either,
A, requested it or, B, President Clinton signed a waiver for it.

MR. LOCKHART: I don't have any information on that. Again, I'd refer you
to Justice. I don't have any independent information on their role, if
any.

The next day, when asked again about any possible waiver, Lockhart
offered more details.

[August 27, 1999; Friday]

Q What did the White House know about the potential operational
involvement of Delta Force in the Waco siege?

MR. LOCKHART: I think that's an issue that was dealt with at the time.
And as we said yesterday, the president was not asked to sign a waiver,
nor were we aware of any activity that would have required a waiver.

But, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned, Lockhart may still not have the full
story.

One witness has told congressional investigators that in April of 1993,
in response to a press inquiry, a White House spokesman stated privately
that a "waiver is on the president's desk" that would have authorized
military intervention.

A development that will cause battle during fresh rounds of congressional
hearings. [/quote]

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
WooHah!!!

Now if somebody would only start asking the other right questions:

"Why was it necessary for a Government Agency to force an armed confrontation, endangering dozens of children in the first place?"

"Why was it necessary for the Attorney General to coopt a Federal Judge by siezing FBI evidence after the Judge requested it?"

"Who was in the White House Sit Room on the days of the first and final raids? Was champagne brunch being served?"

"Why is anyone wishing to get to the truth in this being chastised for 'fanning the flames of conspiracy'?"

"When will the White House start pointing to polls again to explain that the Ameriacan People aren't interested and that this is just another witch hunt perpetrated by a 'vast right wing conspiracy'?"

Inquiring minds want to know. I want to know.
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited September 07, 1999).]
 
DC:

Funny how things work out...if this turns out to be true, the 25 years I spent soldiering will no longer a source of pride for me personally, but will be a source of shame and regret.

Any other corroboration you're aware of at this point that is of a credible nature?

Mike
 
Mike...
Not yet. Drudge is usually right, and as the article says...the un-named informant is going to give the account under oath.
Your service has no bearing on this, Mike, so you are entitled to your pride. If all true, this is an example of an illegal rogue action induced by the pure corruption of this Administration, not the military as a whole.

I'd also like to know the answer to this: there is indication that the "waiver" was on Clinton's desk....whether he signed is yet to be answered....however I want to know why the President of the US would even be remotely involved in a matter dealing with some 80 folks of an obscure religious group who had no history of terrorism, robbery, threat to the security of the United Staes etc. In short...80 people minding their own business and the Pres is consulted on what to do with them?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC/Rich, all those are very good questions. Now lets see what kind of answers they concoct. And IF they answer them, how the hell can we believe what they say?? It seems an administration that already has a problem w/ credibilty will have a hard time selling their spin now!! At least to people
who actually use their brain!

------------------
(O!!!!O)
 
Longhair,
Unfortunately, your qualification concerning this administrations credibilty with "people who actually use their brain" will automatically eliminate a significant portion of our citizenry.
 
I wonder how far this will go....Im afraid that this will once again become political game instead of crimminal were the full brunt of the law should be brought against those folks........as weve seen in the past these people can delay and falisfy and lie there way out of almost everything,....as an interesting aside, here I heard on a show the other night that Vince Foster was supposed to have been the liason between the war room and the justice dept and the clintons, another words he was the cut out, apparently the tragedy of that event was supposed to have been to much for him. Ive a friend who had dealing with sam walton, hilliary and bill and vince foster, when he lived in littlerock and experienced first hand the power those folks weilded. Out of all of em Vince was the only one he had respect for, he has never for a minute believed this suicide theory, especially having first hand knowledge of the players, he claims that vince was an honest man, I dont know, I know if i was caught up with scoundrels, I would have seperated from them, and I sure wouldnt have taken my life.....fubsy.
 
Foster committed suicide, just like the BDs did. Yeah, right.

"The FBI didn't shoot! Really! Sure, we told you we didn't use incendiaries, then you found out we did, so we admitted using a couple that couldn't have started the fire, so you gotta believe us now! We didn't shoot!" I'm such a cynic, why can't I believe the national police spokesman?
 
Mike; Dont feel shame for yourself on this one.Feel proud of what you did. This farce was caused cowardly politicians. Even if Delta was involved it had to be by Presidential Decree. You know that Delta was lied to and can you guess who told the lies?


------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
To All, I wonder if anything at all will come from this? I think they could have film of KlinKton and Reno, shooting at the building and lobbing in grenades, and someone could get them out of it. The joke will be on us again or some lowly peon, or the judge that McNulty was given permission from to look at the evidence locker on the Waco deal. Most Americans complained more when thier cable provider wasn't carrying Fox and CBS, then they did during the Klinkton impeachment trial.

YOUR BROTHER IN ARMS---------CHAINSAW
 
Karanas I know you're right, and it's very sad :(

Mike, I agree w/ Ed. This has no reflection on your service, you can, and should still be proud.

------------------
(O!!!!O)
 
Mike,

I would not be ashamed of any personal service. If this is true, I would be quite ashamed of Delta irregardless if they were ordered to do so.
 
There has long been a professional relationship between HRT and Delta. This is no secret. From what I understand, there are a lot of exchange progams, both formal and informal throughout the counter terrorist community. Operators are routinely seconded to other organizations to share techniques and training methods. It was a Sergeant from the British SAS who flash banged the hijacked airliner in Mogadishu for GSG9.

As of yet we don't know if the Delta operators were there in that capacity or if their presense was official by executive order.

Either way we have reason to be concerned. If they were there because they had been detailed to HRT as an exchange program what were their instructions? Under this circumstance I would be willing to bet that they were briefed to take no direct action or involve themselves in any civilian law enforcement activity except as a witness. More conventional troops in this situation would probably be prohibited from carrying weapons out side of a training environment, but the rules for Delta may have been different. If this is the case it is very disturbing, because the most highly trained, mature and disciplined soldiers our Army can produce threw everything they stand for away, for a little "trigger time".

If Delta was there by executive authorization, their presense may have been technically legal, but we have several scary aspects to this.

1. We have an administration who would authorize the use of our elite counter terrorist unit against a religious sect that was presenting no more of a danger to society then suspicion of tax violations.

2. We have senior leaders in our Army who are capable of ignoring the classes on the Law of War and the duty to disobey an unlawful order. The people at the three and four star level who stand between the Whitehouse and Delta (unlike in the movies, the president doesn't just call up Lee Marvin or Chuck Norris and deploy Delta Force) refused to do the right thing. Officers at that level don't have to worry about how they will earn a living after retirement (I've yet to hear of a retired flag officer on food stamps) But they went along, for whatever reason they made the wrong moral choice.

3. The Delta operators themselves, picked for their maturity, independence of thought, stamina and ability to make choices hard moral choices like that in an environment where they maybe have no contact with higher headquarters went along and fired on American civilians. These Delta operators are the men we depend on to make the right choice no matter what. They are on their own, often with no way to contact headquarters for instructions or advice and they made a decision that was so morally wrong.

The line between soldier and policeman is a very wide and distinct one. I know, I have been on active duty for the entire time I've been a part time police officer. unlike other soldiers, whose commander approves their off duty employment, mine had to be approved by the first two star general in my chain of command. I do nothing in my capacity as a police officer in a duty status with the Army. I very seldom will even go to the police station in my Army uniform, unless I'm on Army business. This is the way things have to be.

If these allegations are true I am afraid that I feel the same way that Mike does. My 25 years of service doesn't shine anymore. The entire institution that is the United States Army has been defiled by those who are supposed to be our best.

I think what Mike was saying is that a good soldier loves the Army he has faith that no matter what happens at lower levels by individuals the institution of the Army and those who are entrusted with it's care at the highest levels will do the right thing.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this for Mike, but it is why I will be ashamed to have been part of it, by serving when it happened.
Jeff
 
Military intervention in civilian matters has been government policy for a long time. In 1973, when I was stationed at Ft. Hood, Tx, my battalion came up on the regular rotation for "Riot Control" and we recieved the nessacary training to do that job. We were told flat out that since there was no National Guard unit nearby, that in the event of civil unrest, we would be sent to restore order.
I didn't think much of it at the time, but now it bothers me.
 
What bothers me in this is the fact that it makes no bureaucratic sense. ATF had blown the initial raid and FBI had taken over. The thought that HRT would defer to, or even ask Delta for help, is to me illogical given turf considerations.

These are proud units and agencies. Sure, the ATF can lie to the Army to get resources (helocopters and surveilance planes) it doesn't have. But for the FBI to call in Delta, it would be a basic admission: "Here you guys do this better than us."

'Course, it's always possible their presence and involvement was ordered by someone higher up. But this would require an individual who fit the following profile:
- Risk Taker
- Control Freak
- Someone who believes that he can get away with anything
- Someone enamored of the trappings, power and toys provided with his new position
- Someone who can't help but play with those new toys on American and foreign soil

I can't think of anyone who would fit that profile...can you?
;)
Rich
 
Boys and Girls, Nothing will come of this!
It is unfortunate but that is what is the way of the world as we have it shoved down our throats!

Keep your pride in your military service. I do. 1972 one day in May out of uniform in D.C. one day in uniform. No, I wasn't the guy who had a rose stuck in the barrel of his rifle! Yes, I was the guy in the background trying to figure out what in the hel# was going on!

I can't speak for the Drudge Report, I only read it on occasion. It does make for some good reading though.

Pardon my ramblings of tonight, Hank Lampe
 
That sounds a lot like Hillary to me. I really think she is the power freak in the family.
What really bothers me(and bothered me at the time)is that the Branch Davidians were not even MINOR players. They were a religion in their church and someone in OUR government found it necessary to destroy them.
Sure,David Koresh might have been strange but look at some of the strange preachers and other creatures on TV or in real life for that matter.
The truth is that ATF screwed up bigtime and rather than admitting their mistake they escalated it. It was escalated to the highest level of our government and was rubber stamped at every level.And that is why at the very least WE cant let this opportunity pass. We have to let our elected representatives know that we demand the truth and we will personally hold them responsible to be sure it is told.


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
All:

As Jeff has said, exchanges between CT/SOF organizations, whether civilian or military, are quite common. As a vehicle for exchanging training ideas, testing those ideas, etc, they are not in and of themselves, harmful.

If SFOD-D had observers there, due to their long training association w/HRT, I would not be surprised. If they took an active, belligerent role, then the law was broken. Whoever ordered it and whoever approved it has broken the faith. That's where the shame and disappointment come in.

There are, IMHO, light years of difference between riot control training (I went through it too as an MP officer) and participating in a LE op against the BDs. SFOD-D soldiers are the best...the most mature, the one's most able to think independently in absence of orders from higher HQ. As I've said before, there are no 2LTs and SP4s running around in the organization. The outcome of all of this will be interesting at best...depressing and outrageous at worst.

Mike
 
As I posted in a previous message regarding Waco and the military, the U.S. Army "left" grenade launchers and 250 high explosive projectiles for the FBI's use. (This is straight from a .gov report on the matter, not third hand rumor.) Someone please explain to me how anti-personnel fragmentation munitions are justifiably applied to a law enforcement scenario?
 
Follow-up: http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 07, 1999 17:04:22 ET XXXXX

EX-CIA SPECIAL AGENT PROMISED PROTECTION IN WACO CASE; SAYS FEDS THREATENED
HIM

**World Exclusive**
**Must Credit DRUDGE REPORT**

A former CIA agent who claims knowledge of a Delta Force shoot-out at Waco
has been promised protection by investigators for a Senate committee after
threats were made on the former agent and his son by federal law
enforcement officers.

The intimidation of the witness occurred last week when FBI agents warned
the witness -- face to face -- that he was in violation of his CIA
confidentiality oath and could be charged with "risking national security."


According to congressional sources, investigators for Sen. Chuck Grassley,
R-Iowa, who heads a Senate Judiciary subcommittee with FBI oversight, have
promised protection to former CIA Special Agent Gene Cullen -- if his bona
fides check out.

[A spokeswoman for Grassley says a vote by the full committee would be
required to grant immunity; the process of checking Cullen's story is in
the early stages.]

Questions have been raised throughout official Washington about the nature
of the threats made against the whistleblower and if FBI Director Louis
Freeh was directly aware of the intimidation.

"I don't know how Waco, Texas could possibly be a threat to 'national
security,'" one alarmed congressional chairman told the DRUDGE REPORT.

"Cullen was 'politely' reminded that he signed confidentiality papers when
he was hired at the CIA," says one source.

Cullen has told investigators that he was visited by agents after he
granted an interview to the DALLAS MORNING NEWS two weeks ago.

Cullen, who was in charge of coordinating intelligence in Somalia for the
CIA, told the paper that he learned from Delta Force commandos that up to
10 members of the secret Army unit were "present, up front and close" in
helping the FBI in the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound.

But the DRUDGE REPORT has learned that Cullen did not tell the paper
everything he knew.

In the interview with the NEWS, Cullen stopped short of stating that Delta
Force members admitted to him that they were involved in combat at Waco --
information Cullen plans to reveal under oath before Congress!

This much is now known:

Cullen was served a subpoena by congressional investigators last week.

Cullen has moved to a secret location and could not be reached for comment.


Cullen has given an interview for the new film, WACO: A NEW REVELATION.

On camera, the former CIA Special Agent states: Delta Force members said
they participated in a shoot-out during the final assault on the Branch
Davidian compound in Waco.[/quote]

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
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