Gore & Barr Blast Bush on Surveillance

I'd appreciate the answers to two straightforward questions from those "with nothing to hide":
1) If this was a limited scope investigation, why was the FISA Court bypassed?

2) If the FISA Court was set up specifically to AID the Executive Branch in being able to "Tap Today, Ask Next Week", yet the President has the right to bypass that watered down warrant process, exactly what is the purpose of the FISA Court in the first place? Why not simply do away with it?

Rich
 
Challenge

Micro if you own a car ,have a liscense, a credit card, a house,have a bank account, own stock,came to this country from another, have a pass port,pay taxes, have insurance etc. someone can track you on the net.:) Lets see September birth in 1984, social sec. card
 
There are "over the counter" search tools available for a small fee that cannot only find you but produce your entire background history from something as small as your phone no., email address, or etc.
 
The majority of people have no idea where to get access to that information nor have the slightest inkling on where to look or how to use those tools. Now just because other people can find information on me does not mean it's ok for my government to do the exact same thing.
 
[it is not the spying on terrorist that is objectionable and perhaps unconstitutional but it is the fact that the innocent might also be spied upon/QUOTE]

Your concern for the innocent citizen is touching. [Personal attack deleted by Rich Lucibella]
Click to expand...
 
Zen-
You have mail.
All others....kindly stick to the point. Neither Gore nor Barr argued that the Executive is only obtaining information in the public domain. If you'd like to start a thread challenging each other to see how much you can learn from internet searches, have at it. This is a government wiretapping debate.
Rich
 
Fisa

If I found it leaking info or could not trust that national security would be secure, I would bypass it. God help us when everything to secure this nation is open to the MEDIA or PUBLIC. Some things just aren't for Eyes of the Public. If the public had been aware of the casualties in WWII we all would be speaking German. The casualty count in the campaign for Vicksburg in the civil war was Around 12000 and 4500 were deaths.Now imagine if the media had told the public that in the first day of Normandy we had 10000 killed. Some things are for security reasons hushed.:confused:
 
If I found it leaking info or could not trust that national security would be secure, I would bypass it.
Click to expand...
That's not answering the question...and it requires a surreal stretch of imagination to even countenance. FISA is a SECRET COURT. If FISA were leaking information, that would be a Federal crime; possibly treason. No one has accused FISA of leaking information. No investigation of FISA is ongoing.

Rich
 
No one has done that.
Click to expand...

Kicking in a door at 3:00 AM just to have a look around and wiretaps without warrants have the same net effect as violations of the Fourth Amendment and an invasion of privacy without probable cause.
Any evidence collected as a result is fruit of the poison tree. IOW a judge with his feces coagulated would suppress the evidence and toss the case.
Now which is worse, taking time developing a case you can prosecute without legal techicalities endangering it or throwing together a half-arsed case on a terrorist who'll be cut loose because you didn't feel like following the Constitution?:mad:
 
Wire taps

Anybody ever seen a wire tap that killed anyone? We see the results of terrorist on TV every day that do kill. So I say suck it up and endeavor to live happliy in our free country. Where we can complain with out fear of a SADAM like rulers, cutting off our head or raping our daughters and wives.:(
 
Anybody ever seen a wire tap that killed anyone?
Click to expand...
There's a novel rationalization. "So long as they're not killing anyone. I'll suck it up....for my safety, of course."

Shoulda been the 11th Amendment. :rolleyes:

When did American's highest priority and source of pride switch from Protecting our Freedoms to "Safety"? I know it's happened because no one claims we're fighting for American Freedoms anymore.

The Terrs have come a long way in changing the face of America. They see us as a bunch of pasty faced, frightened children....in too many cases they're exactly right; and it was their actions that have caused so many of us to look in the mirror and admit as much to ourselves. Shameful, really.
Rich
 
The Feds

The way I look at it you got to do what you got to do. I sure ain't no mall ninja or some duper dude. So if they keep one person from getting their arss shot off it's kind of worth it. Any yes you might get your door kicked in but before all this how many tomes have they already kicked in the wrong door. **** happens like I said if it keeps some a!!!hole from killin a bunch of school kids (cause they don't care if you have a uniform or not) from dieing then kick my door in or anybody else's if it can stop it. Because if I was a Terrorist thats where I'd go sure would cause a lot of grief wouldn't it . Enough ranting from me. Be Safe out There
 
How about on people and phone numbers found in Taliban and al queada strongholds? Is it ok to listen in on those?
Click to expand...
I'll bet that might be enough to get a warrant, don't you think?


This isn't about spying, it is about spying without due process. That puts judicial power in the Executive branch.

I remember reading somewhere about seperation of power.
 
So if they keep one person from getting their arss shot off it's kind of worth it.
Click to expand...
Makes sense to me....The Brady Bunch has been making the same argument for two decades....and far more people are dying from firearms than terrorist attacks; so maybe we ought to all revisit our views on the Second Amendment, now that we've abdicated the Fourth.

Like I said, when "Freedom" stops being a cherished value of the US Citizen, his legislators will be happy to replace it with something else.
- War is Peace
- Freedom is Slavery
- Ignorance is Strength

This isn't about spying, it is about spying without due process. That puts judicial power in the Executive branch.
Click to expand...
Spot on and well said, Handy.


Rich
 
Who cares about what mindless opportunistic dribble is spewed forth from the lungs of a long winded sack like Al Gore?
 
unless they are terrorists, suspected terrorists, "enemy combatants", Muslims, Muslim-looking, or attempting to board a plane while having an Arabic surname. We are, after all, At War.
Click to expand...

you forgot "and people with guns, who are undoubtedly enemy combatants in the making".
 
I love when people say, "I'm a good citizen, I have nothing to hide."
That's not the point.
To me, that argument rings just as false as, "Well, what do you need guns for? They only kill people!"

The point isn't wether or not I have something to hide. The point is, the fourth amendment states that law enforcement can't come knocking on my door, or spying on me without due process.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Click to expand...

Pretty simple, huh? I don't care if it's for a "good reason". You CANNOT DO IT.

I'm sure people in new orleans had their guns taken away from them for a GOOD REASON. It's just as much male bovine excrement to me.
 
Your right Rich

Now that I have more time to think about it you guys are rigght . I don't know what I wa thinking about but it was what you where talking about. Heck I don't want them to come knocking either. only thing we can do about it is get rid of these screwie people like gore , Kennedy Shumur, Fienstien and all their counter parts but like some one said easier said then done. Any more you vote for who is going to screw you the least. Look like it might be time for another revolution .(LOL) If any one truely has the answer then it's what we as people of this country need to get up off our collective rear ends and do and qit talking about it and start getting it done. But like most of us I like to stay way under the radar if you know what I mean. Thanks , Kurt Be Safe Out There
 
I hoped there would be much greater concern over this subject in a forum like this, that worries me a bit. Maybe some of you who "have nothing to hide" are a still a bit young & naive.

I don't trust the Government with anymore power than is absolutely required and authorized under the Constitution. I don't want them assuming additional power or control REGARDLESS of the emotion of the moment. Hell, most of us think our BENEVOLENT goverment had a hand in the assassination of a president.

Our Founding Fathers insisted on the 2nd Ammendment before they ratified the Constitution. It wasn't to insure that we all could protect ourselves from bad guys, robbers, or drug dealers. . . it was so we could protect ourselves from the Government! Why would anyone bother to the REPEAL the 2nd Ammendment, when so many Americans sit by ignorantly as it is being ignored?

ALL of our rights are constantly getting chipped away, mostly for a 'good' cause; "We have to stop and search your car just in case you might be carrying drugs", "We'd like to register your guns, just in case they are get stolen and are used in a crime, (Hey, why worry if your haven't done anything wrong!)"

Our Government is a necessary servant to the people; we can't have an orderly society without them, but we need to watch them constantly so they don't forget who's the master and who's the servant. Felt like a master lately?

I'll get off the pulput now, sorry.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top