Mannlicher
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what is a CHL?
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Good Tactics vs Ethical Dilemma Gets CHL Killed
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I believe it stands for Concealed Handgun License.
In PA, it's LTCF - License to Carry Firearm. For civilians the most common reason given on the application is "self defense." As such, the persons with the permit are given license to carry a firearm and use it in defending themselves as opposed to acting as law enforcement or professional security personnel. It's a tough call in a case like the OP is pointing out.
In PA, it's LTCF - License to Carry Firearm. For civilians the most common reason given on the application is "self defense." As such, the persons with the permit are given license to carry a firearm and use it in defending themselves as opposed to acting as law enforcement or professional security personnel. It's a tough call in a case like the OP is pointing out.
I was not there, so a little conjecture here. He followed the two men into the Barbers shop, that we know. They had guns out, that we also know.
I can imagine what happened next! The good citizen spoke.
Most likely, famous words from newsreels, movies etc. "Drop the gun"
Bad guys shot first.
What I think I would have done, shot from cover, as soon as was in cover, closest robber first, double-tap both! Continue.
I can imagine what happened next! The good citizen spoke.
Most likely, famous words from newsreels, movies etc. "Drop the gun"
Bad guys shot first.
What I think I would have done, shot from cover, as soon as was in cover, closest robber first, double-tap both! Continue.
Brit brings up a point. When violence IS the answer it is the only answer. Your adversaries are willing to employ it in dastardly ways. If you are going to enter combat with such adversaries you have to be just as willing as they are to commit violence and commit it in dastardly ways.
Don Fischer
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My idea is he should have found a phone quickly and called the cops.Keep an eye on the bad guy's and look for them to get i a car with a license plate number, get it. People in the barber shop apparently no armed. If they had been there may have been a whole different outcome. Because I have a carry license and carry 24/7 does not mean I'm going to put myself into a bad spot for those that don't carry! I'm old now and my training in maybe how to handle the situation was long ago when I was in a lot better shape. Your neighbor that refuse's to make an effort to defend himself/herself is not worth you putting your life on the line to protect, that's the job of the police!
So if the argument is he should have entered the barbershop stealthfully and then taken out the threat from cover, how does that play out legally? I'm not talking morally or how you and I personally feel. He pursued suspects that were no longer threatening him personally. He then enters an establishment where the suspects are threatening others in a strong arm robbery (maybe shooting people, maybe not if the argument is we should only consider what he knew), and then executes them from cover. Does that see him face criminal charges, perhaps especially so in a place like Chicago? Assuming Illinois doesn't have the legislation protecting him from a civil suit, there's almost guaranteed to be a civil suit as well in that case.
I'm asking this genuinely as I'm not a lawyer or a servant of the criminal justice system. Yes his life was threatened, but the threat had ceased to him. Police officers have faced criminal charges for shooting fleeing suspects. Maybe that would be the tactically sound thing to do if the end goal is the elimination of a threat. But is that the only goal in a force encounter? Is part of the goal also the continuation of your own standard of living? Maybe that's worth it to save your friends.
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I'm asking this genuinely as I'm not a lawyer or a servant of the criminal justice system. Yes his life was threatened, but the threat had ceased to him. Police officers have faced criminal charges for shooting fleeing suspects. Maybe that would be the tactically sound thing to do if the end goal is the elimination of a threat. But is that the only goal in a force encounter? Is part of the goal also the continuation of your own standard of living? Maybe that's worth it to save your friends.
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*IF* the threat to others is genuine and ongoing I expect he is ok. You are allowed to use force to protect others under generally the same rules you are allowed to use force to protect yourself. If shooting without warning prevents someone from shooting an innocent then your ok as long as the facts line up.
The danger is the amount of things that you could not know. Perhaps the "criminals" were bounty hunters (granted not in the situation we were originally discussing).
Not a lawyer.
The danger is the amount of things that you could not know. Perhaps the "criminals" were bounty hunters (granted not in the situation we were originally discussing).
Not a lawyer.
OldMarksman
Staff
"OK"?*IF* the threat to others is genuine and ongoing I expect he is ok
He is dead.
"OK"?
He is dead
I thought we were discussing the hypothetical situation where the law-abiding citizen shot from cover and the legal ramifications of doing so. At least that is what I was discussing
"...CHL entered the barbershop to stop the robbery..." Not his responsibility to pursue a vigilante justice result. The guy watched too much TV.
"...don't care enough about their community to lay their lives on the line..." That's not what CCW/CHL(or whatever it's called where you are) is about. He is presumably untrained in the tactics required to enter into combat, alone, with 2 armed criminals with no back up. That CHL does not swear one in as a cop.
"...don't care enough about their community to lay their lives on the line..." That's not what CCW/CHL(or whatever it's called where you are) is about. He is presumably untrained in the tactics required to enter into combat, alone, with 2 armed criminals with no back up. That CHL does not swear one in as a cop.
If you are going to enter combat with such adversaries you have to be just as willing as they are to commit violence and commit it in dastardly ways.
Dastardly implies illegal. In no way should the force used be illegal. Obviously the robbers don't care about legal so they have you at somewhat a disadvantage.
"...don't care enough about their community to lay their lives on the line..." That's not what CCW/CHL(or whatever it's called where you are) is about.
Of course not. Caring about the community is something people either do or don't do in varying degrees independent of carrying a gun. Having a CHL and a gun to me means that you care enough about yourself and maybe some others that you are willing to protect yourself and maybe some others you do care about. Allowing armed robbers to roam the streets unopposed is only a problem for you when it becomes a problem for you.
Different people draw that line all over the place.
I see. I guess the American Revolutionaries were "dastardly" for their failure to fight in the open. Times have changed.Does it imply illegal? It was not intended as such. I intend to mean, if you can fire from cover, use it. None of this standing out and going "surrender you ruffians"
The times have changed, was this before or after we lived in interesting times? Does that mean the times are now boring, or were they once boring?I see. I guess the American Revolutionaries were "dastardly" for their failure to fight in the open. Times have changed.
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I see. I guess the American Revolutionaries were "dastardly" for their failure to fight in the open. Times have changed.
They were. If you are going to go up against superior forces its always a good idea to be a bit dastardly. Believing you are simply so skilled as to overcome superior forces in "honorable" combat seems a touch egotistical to me.
Those using violence as a "normal" part of their life know how to use violence. They seldom do so by honorably challenging the victim to honorable combat. If you are going to be forced to violence as a last resort do not hamstring your efforts by some concept of being honorable about it. Violence is always a negative act. It is sometimes a necessary act. If you are going to employ it there are no half measures.
American Man
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I grew up with many friends that turned into violent criminals with no conscience in the least. These kids are not to be underestimated for one second. They don't even understand fear until they are trapped by other gang members and getting the hell beat out of them or shot and stabbed and if they are not killed, it is like nothing happened when they recover. Knowing this guy actually lived in Chicago, I would believe he knew what these two thugs were capable of. And I would guess out of the two articles, he would not have entered that barber shop unless shots were actually fired.
These street thugs may not be highly trained with firearms, but there is no way in hell I am going to get robbed and then follow them into a confined area such as a barber shop or any standard convenience store in a city. They are reckless and lucky... some are lucky enough to come out on top even against police.
My first 4 years in the army, going back to Brooklyn on leave every year, I heard about one friend after the other either in prison for life or gunned down by the cops or other dealers... and I always said, "GOOD", the world is a better place. And I would run into some of them and it would be just like friends happy to see a friend they haven't seen in a long time, but you just knew what was going to happen to them next time you came home. Luckily I also had friends who lead decent lives. lol
These street thugs may not be highly trained with firearms, but there is no way in hell I am going to get robbed and then follow them into a confined area such as a barber shop or any standard convenience store in a city. They are reckless and lucky... some are lucky enough to come out on top even against police.
My first 4 years in the army, going back to Brooklyn on leave every year, I heard about one friend after the other either in prison for life or gunned down by the cops or other dealers... and I always said, "GOOD", the world is a better place. And I would run into some of them and it would be just like friends happy to see a friend they haven't seen in a long time, but you just knew what was going to happen to them next time you came home. Luckily I also had friends who lead decent lives. lol
Things were much more boring 130 years ago. Even more so 300 years ago. If I lived where I live now but 300 years ago, most of my day would be spent trying to create food security. These days trying to figure out how not to be fat is a challenge to a lot of folks.The times have changed, was this before or after we lived in interesting times? Does that mean the times are now boring, or were they once boring?
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Agree completely but I wonder if the food truck guy was just was POed, angry and was looking for revenge, or something else motivated by anger/emotion..unknown cuz he didn't make it.."...CHL entered the barbershop to stop the robbery..." Not his responsibility to pursue a vigilante justice result. The guy watched too much TV.
"...don't care enough about their community to lay their lives on the line..." That's not what CCW/CHL(or whatever it's called where you are) is about. He is presumably untrained in the tactics required to enter into combat, alone, with 2 armed criminals with no back up. That CHL does not swear one in as a cop.
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