Good sales prevention technique.

. . . NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER . . .
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This whole thing pivots on whether " / " means "AND," or it means " OR "

If "AND" then it's arguably a straw purchase.
If " OR " then it's not.

Where is there any written citation from the ATF (or the Court) as to their interpretation ?
 
If you give a person $500 as a gift and they decide to buy a firearm with it, then it's not a straw purchase. Same if you buy the person a $500 gift card to a gun store and they buy a firearm with it.

Same if you take that person to the gun store, they complete the 4473 and you pay for it. It's just a money gift to someone. And ultimately, if you buy a gun legally and give it as a gift, that's also not a straw purchase.

Or maybe that's already been said............ Too many different angles for interpretation.

--Wag--
 
Wag said:
If you give a person $500 as a gift and they decide to buy a firearm with it, then it's not a straw purchase. Same if you buy the person a $500 gift card to a gun store and they buy a firearm with it.
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Agreed.

Same if you take that person to the gun store, they complete the 4473 and you pay for it. It's just a money gift to someone.
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Disagree. Many examples of guidance as to what to watch out for when being aware of straw purchases describe exactly that -- one person fills out the 4473 as the "purchaser' but a second person pulls out his/her wallet and pays for the firearm.

And ultimately, if you buy a gun legally and give it as a gift, that's also not a straw purchase.
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Agreed. But that's not what happened.

The problem is that none of the above describes the transaction set forth in jaysouth's opening post for this thread. He did not send the money to his daughter. He did not give his daughter a gift card. He did not buy a gun himself and then give/send/transfer the gun to his daughter in a second transfer.
 
The following is from the BATFE's reference guide to firearms regulation. It's about a 250-page document that you can probably find on the internet.

15. STRAW PURCHASES
Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to exe-
cute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used be-
cause the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited cate-
gories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquir-
ing the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw pur-
chaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above exam-
ple, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw pur-
chases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.
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Link to Aguila Blanca's posting:

https://www.atf.gov/file/56376/download

"The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records."
 
using somebody else's money is the funny part. if you're married you always use your wife's money because you have none of your own.
 
Part of the problem is the process of establishing intent. Aguila Blanca is absolutely correct that technically speaking, if Smith completes the 4473 and Jones plops down the cash on the counter for it, it's a straw purchase but in reality, it's simply intended to be a gift from Jones to Smith. One law-abiding citizen being generous to another on his birthday.

Of course, the appearance of evil is everything.

--Wag--
 
We are still playing red herring/apples vs oranges

An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

That is not the case with father supplying the cash for the daughter filling out the 4473 and the daughter keeping the gun

She is the transferee . . . and I'm still waiting for a case/cite that contradicts those conditions.
 
Wag Part of the problem is the process of establishing intent. Aguila Blanca is absolutely correct that technically speaking, if Smith completes the 4473 and Jones plops down the cash on the counter for it, it's a straw purchase but in reality, it's simply intended to be a gift from Jones to Smith. One law-abiding citizen being generous to another on his birthday.

Of course, the appearance of evil is everything
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This.
People can argue for another ten pages on whether a particular situation is/isn't a straw purchase. In reality, the dealer is the one that has to make the decision if it APPEARS to be a straw purchase or not. He isn't required by law to make a determination of fact, but may cancel the sale with just the slightest suspicion that it may be a straw sale.

Gun dealers want to sell guns, don't give them a reason not to.
 
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