Good sales prevention technique.

J

jaysouth

New member
My daughter who lives five states away told me she wanted to get a gun to "keep in the house".

The game plan was to call Bud's, order a gun and have it shipped to a local gun store for transfer.

I went on line and called gun shops in her area. The first one I called said that this would be a straw purchase and they would have nothing to do with it, and that I should be ashamed of myself for even suggesting it.

The second gun shop said "we do a lot of business with bud's and we will be glad to handle the transfer". "does your daughter have a permit". No, but they talked me into paying for a CCW class for her and then asked about holsters, mags, ammo, etc.

At the end of the day, I prepaid the transfer fee, paid for a class, and kicked in a gift certificate to cover accessories.

How you talk on a phone can be a powerful enemy or moneymaker. I'll be willing to wager that the owner of the first shop I talked to, where they accused me of attempted criminal activity, has concocted at least ten reasons why his business is so lousy.
 
Most of the time its how you say it vs what is said. Understand that gun dealers get these kind of statements from customers.....regularly:
"How do you convert this to full auto?"
"Can I buy this gun without filling out paperwork?"
"How much extra if you sell it off the books?"
"OK, my mom will come in tomorrow and buy this for me"
"What do you mean my Beretta with scratched out serial number is worthless in a trade?

All the above is what I've heard and I only do 3-5 gun shows a year.

1. A "straw purchase" is buying a firearm on behalf of another person. Whether the other person is prohibited does not matter. Only the actual buyer/transferee can fill out the Form 4473. When the name on the invoice/packing slip is different than the person who comes to pick it up....it sends a big red flag to the dealer.
2. The packing slip from Bud's will have the buyers name on it (jaysouth).
3. The first gun store owner is rightly worried that you are using someone else to fill out the Form 4473 and undergo the background check. Why is he worried? Because his license and livelihood are dependent on abiding by silly gun laws. Violating one can have his FFL revoked.
4. Is your daughter incapable of placing an online order herself?
5. If giving as a bonafide gift, did you make that clear to the first gun store? Simply calling and saying "I'm buying a gun, my daughter will pick it up" is a nearly 100% guarantee that the gun store will refuse such a transfer. At least once a month I'll have a gun arrive for someone and they call and say "I'm sending my son/neighbor/wife/girlfriend/etc to pick it up. Uh, no you aren't.
6. It's never a bad idea to give a gift card.:D
 
Dogtown,

I worked this all out with Buds and they were fine with it, as was the local store. As you point out the actual transferee has to fill out the 4473, as was done.

The gun was on the books of Buds. They shipped it to a local store with her name on the invoice. My daughter came into the store and filled out the 4473.


anecedote:

I was hanging out in a local gun store not long ago. A person came in and said "I've only got one felony conviction", can I buy a gun? Owner asks "that all you got". prospective buyer said, "yeah, but I'm out on bond for piddlin little robbery".

Owner says "sorry".
 
jaysouth said:
I worked this all out with Buds and they were fine with it, as was the local store. As you point out the actual transferee has to fill out the 4473, as was done.

The gun was on the books of Buds. They shipped it to a local store with her name on the invoice. My daughter came into the store and filled out the 4473.
Click to expand...
Who paid for the gun?

It sounds like you paid for the gun. If that's correct, how did your daughter fill out the 4473? If she checked "Yes" for the question "Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm," she lied. That would mean that the first guy you talked to was correct -- you set up a straw purchase.
 
Whether there was an actual violation or not, I understand why the first gun store was skittish and didn't want to find out. It's their license on the line, and perhaps even more.
 
Gun shop I worked at had gift certificates for that exact scenario. I would've tried to sell you on a cleaning kit, eye & ear protection, and ammo to go with the gun and CCW class. ;)
 
Who paid for the gun?

It sounds like you paid for the gun. If that's correct, how did your daughter fill out the 4473? If she checked "Yes" for the question "Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm," she lied. That would mean that the first guy you talked to was correct -- you set up a straw purchase.
Click to expand...

Actually, the 4473 asks is you are the "transferee/buyer". From a grammar perspective that's one or the other, not necessarily both. OP's daughter was the transferee which is completely legal. I know it's easier just purchase a gift card, but ultimately, it's about the transferee.

I can understand the concern from some, but the OP did the right thing and was honest with both Buds and the gun shop.

ROCK6
 
There are specific rules to follow, but you can buy a gun for someone else as a gift. And (again following the rules) you can buy a gun and gift it to someone, and not have it be a "straw purchase".

You can also run afoul of the straw purchase laws if all the requirements of legally gifting are not met. Any dealer who cares about staying in business will work with you and explain what needs to be done to comply with the law.

If they aren't willing to do that, they don't deserve your patronage.

the gift certificate idea seems pretty good, to avoid the potential legal pitfalls, you aren't buying a gun for someone else. I would think laws governing buying a gun wouldn't apply when you aren't buying a gun, but I'm no expert. If I'm wrong, please correct me on this.
 
"In the United States, a straw purchaser of a firearm at a federally licensed firearm dealership who lies about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a federal Firearms Transaction Record. If a firearm is purchased as a gift, the transaction is not a straw purchase, and the person buying the gift is considered the end user."
-- AND --
As long as the OP's daughter fills out the 4473/is cleared to receive the weapon, it's no different than the OP going into the store and laying down the cash while the daughter (again) fills out the 4473 as the transferee.
 
mehavey "In the United States, a straw purchaser of a firearm at a federally licensed firearm dealership who lies about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a federal Firearms Transaction Record. If a firearm is purchased as a gift, the transaction is not a straw purchase, and the person buying the gift is considered the end user."
-- AND --
As long as the OP's daughter fills out the 4473/is cleared to receive the weapon, it's no different than the OP going into the store and laying down the cash while the daughter (again) fills out the 4473 as the transferee.
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Yet that is the exact scenario that ATF tells dealers is a straw purchase.

The NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) the firearms industry trade association tells dealers:
Genuine Purchase or Straw? You Make the Call

•Make sure there is genuine interest and questions from the customer about the firearm being considered for purchase.
•The salesperson should be convinced of the reason and intended lawful purpose the customer has for acquiring the firearm.
•The purchaser should not typically be referencing a note, picture or description when asking to purchase a gun.
•Be alert to someone asking to purchase a firearm that may have been the subject of a recent NICS denial or delay. Be alert to similar last names and addresses in this scenario as well.
•Be alert to who is paying for the firearm versus who is completing the Form 4473 and NICS.
•Be cognizant to couples shopping together in which one person selects the firearm and the second person completes the Form 4473. This often involves a married couple in which one person may be a prohibited person. Don’t accept excuses such as, “I forgot my wallet, so my girlfriend is purchasing it for me.”
•Be suspicious of uneducated customers attempting to purchase more than one handgun at a time with little inquiry about the firearms.
Click to expand...


Gun dealers don't find it funny when you joke about all the questions on the Form 4473 or make supposedly offhand comments about what you are going to do with your gun when you get home. We hear every conspiracy theory regarding the government, ATF, IRS and secret Obama gun laws that were never made public.



It doesn't take much effort to tell the gun dealer when you first enter that "This is my wife/daughter/girlfriend and I would like to buy her a gun as a gift......how do we proceed?" Versus you looking at every gun as she is looking at her cellphone disinterested in everything, and then you tell the dealer...."Uh, the gun is for her, I'm just paying for it.

Walk into a convenience store at 3am with your sunglasses on and your hoody pulled over your head in June.....what do you think the clerk will think?


In short, don't give me a reason to say "NO GUN FOR YOU!" Which I'll do in a heartbeat if you give the slightest inkling, hint, weird vibe or clue that the transaction isn't 100% legal.
 
dogtown tom said:
Yet that is the exact scenario that ATF tells dealers is a straw purchase.
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That is also the scenario that landed a cop in prison, IIRC. The case was discussed here a couple or three years ago. Cop used his LEO discount to buy a gun for a relative (uncle?). The uncle wasn't a prohibited person, but he wouldn't have gotten the discount. So the cop bought a gun, using someone else's money, and filled out the 4473 saying that he was the actual purchaser.

He wasn't. Oops!

From the instructions for question 11.a. on the 4473:

Actual TRANSFEREE/buyer examples: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase
a firearm for Mr. Smith (who may or may not be prohibited). Mr. Smith gives Mr.
Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER
of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.
Click to expand...

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4...n-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download
 
+1 for knowledgeable local dealers (of which I personally know DogTown is one).

I bought a pistol for my wife for Christmas as a surprise to her. Walked into the local gun shop that had a special on them, told him what I wanted to do, ask if she had to be there, he said no, and he walked me through it. Pretty easy and legal.

(So DogTown, I guess you don't want to know I was successful in converting the Barrett .50 you handled for me to a ..... bacon cooker?)
 
Yet that is the exact scenario that ATF tells dealers is a straw purchase.
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Read it again. That is exactly NOT a straw purchase,
The daughter fills out the 4473 as the receiver of the weapon.
Read, gentlemen. Read.
 
mehavey said:
Read it again. That is exactly NOT a straw purchase,
The daughter fills out the 4473 as the receiver of the weapon.
Read, gentlemen. Read.
Click to expand...
Yes, read. Please read the actual instructions from the 4473 for question 11.a - which I reproduced, and also gave you a link to.

Bottom line, if jaysouth paid for the gun with his money and his daughter answered "Yes" to question 11.a -- it was a straw purchase.
 
The clearest statement I have seen of this situation is here:

A straw purchase occurs when someone, other than the actual purchaser, purchases a firearm or ammunition
and states that it is for him/herself, when in reality it is for another individual. While this generally arises
when the true “purchaser” is a prohibited person, the law does not differentiate between a straw purchase
by a prohibited person and a non-prohibited person. While there are some exceptions to straw purchases, such as
purchase of a firearm as a gift, if the Federal Firearms Licensee is aware of the situation, he/she/it will generally
suggest that the purchaser pay for the firearm or purchase a gift card and have the individual who
is actually going to own the firearm come in and fill out the paperwork. This ensures that the individual
receiving the firearm is not a prohibited person and that the transaction does not constitute a straw purchase.
https://blog.princelaw.com/2012/10/...um-sentence-for-straw-purchasers-becomes-law/

Where is there specific ATF guidance (and/or court case) that addresses the actual issue here:
- The dealer/FFL-holder is the 1st party.
- The 2nd party/actual receiver of the weapon fills out the 4473 for himself as transferee/is cleared/takes final possession.
- A 3rd party's money is given in compensation to the dealer. The 3rd party never touches the weapon/much less takes possession.
- No one is a prohibited person.
 
So the cop bought a gun, using someone else's money, and filled out the 4473 saying that he was the actual purchaser.
Click to expand...

THAT makes it a straw sale. I can walk into a store with my buddy, have him pick out the gun, i can pay for it and give it to him as a gift. In fact i did that a couple of years ago for Christmas.

He wanted an AR-10. I found one, i bought it, filled out the 4473 and put it under his tree when he wasnt home one day. Completely LEGAL. You can gift firearms, PERIOD
 
Sharkbite said:
THAT makes it a straw sale. I can walk into a store with my buddy, have him pick out the gun, i can pay for it and give it to him as a gift. In fact i did that a couple of years ago for Christmas.

He wanted an AR-10. I found one, i bought it, filled out the 4473 and put it under his tree when he wasnt home one day. Completely LEGAL. You can gift firearms, PERIOD
Click to expand...
Yes, I think we all know that it is legal to give a firearm as a gift. But that's not that happened in this case. As I understand the sequence, jaysouth paid Bud's for a firearm. Bud's sent the firearm to an FFL in the daughter's state of residence, whereupon the daughter filled out the only 4473 involved in the entire transaction. She did not pay for the gun with her own money (unless I've missed something), so she is not the buyer -- jaysouth is the buyer. But he did not personally take possession and then give the gun to his daughter, so it's not the same as your AR-15 scenario.
 
Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

If Adamski had bought the gun for his uncle using his own (Adamski's) money and then given it to his uncle, there wouldn't have been any problem. But ... he bought the gun usung the uncle's money, and therefore Adamski was not the purchaser.

Just as jaysouth's daughter was not the purchaser, since the gun was (or so it appears) paid for by jaysouth.
 
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