You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
good penetration, vs. overpenetration
- Thread starter headbangerJD
- Start date
Qwiks draw
Moderator
The sources I gave are for BOOKS. Not the Internet. You won't find those articles because that's not what they are.
The sources I gave are for BOOKS. Not the Internet. You won't find those articles because that's not what they are.
What book? What chapter? What page number? Care to quote an excerpt or give any specifics? Ayoob has written copious amounts over the years including several books (as well as contributing to books that he did not author individually). Without a few specifics, there's no way I can reference what you're referring to.
FMJ Over Penetration 101
The number of over penetration casualties were sufficient to cause the bleeding liberals in NYC to change to JHP. Old news.
There were more discussions of the issue in magazines and papers back then that I can not find on the web. No, I don't keep 20 year old magazine articles on what I think is no longer an issue: FMJ can go thru and thru a human.
Of course if you are having a bad day sometimes JHP can get clogged up and behave like FMJ, no guarantees.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/n...tart-using-deadlier-bullets.html?pagewanted=1
The number of over penetration casualties were sufficient to cause the bleeding liberals in NYC to change to JHP. Old news.
There were more discussions of the issue in magazines and papers back then that I can not find on the web. No, I don't keep 20 year old magazine articles on what I think is no longer an issue: FMJ can go thru and thru a human.
Of course if you are having a bad day sometimes JHP can get clogged up and behave like FMJ, no guarantees.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/n...tart-using-deadlier-bullets.html?pagewanted=1
Edward429451
Moderator
PCP loaded maniac? Is that stuff still around? I haven't heard of that stuff being around in years.
The Glasers may be safe from over penetration, but they still do not address the bigger problem of missing...
The Glasers may be safe from over penetration, but they still do not address the bigger problem of missing...
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
Erich writes:
What jurisdiction? Case numbers? If case numbers not available, what are the approximate dates in which each shooting occurred? This is all public information so it won't get you in any trouble to share it.
Fackler described a shooting by either Miami or Globe, Arizona PD, in the 80's in which, IIRC, a Federal 9mm 147gr HydraShok passed through a bad guy and hit and killed the bad guy's son (innocent bystander). I don't have specific details handy at the moment. That's all I can remember.
I responded to a gang shooting in December 1993 or 1994 (Bremerton PD, Bremerton, WA) in which an asian gang member had been shot, while seated, in the left side of the neck with a 9mm 124gr JHP bullet. The bullet traversed his neck, missing important structures, and exited near the neck/shoulder junction on the opposite side, ripping through his Oakland Raiders NFL Starter jacket. The bullet then struck the guy's girlfriend in the back. (She'd also been seated, but with her back to him talking to her girlfriends.) When paramedics arrived they cut away her shirt and the expanded bullet fell onto the floor. I estimated the penetration path through the guy's neck was about 5-6 inches total (he colorfully expressed his displeasure when he realized I was more interested in examining the physical aspects of his wound instead of administering first aid before paramedics arrived - I told him to stop being a puss about it). Factor in the holdback effect of skin on the exit side, which provides resistance of as much as 4 inches of muscle tissue, and the girlfriend's flesh wound, and the bullet's total penetration potential of 9-11 inches was realized and expended. Indeed, the bullet can be said to have "overpenetrated" but the circumstances don't reflect most people's stereotype of "overpenetration."
Cheers!
What was the length of total wound path through the body in each case? Were they solid, center punch torso hits or peripheral hits (with short penetration paths before the bullet exited the body)?I've worked on three cases in which bullets overpenetrated and hit unintended human targets.
What jurisdiction? Case numbers? If case numbers not available, what are the approximate dates in which each shooting occurred? This is all public information so it won't get you in any trouble to share it.
Fackler described a shooting by either Miami or Globe, Arizona PD, in the 80's in which, IIRC, a Federal 9mm 147gr HydraShok passed through a bad guy and hit and killed the bad guy's son (innocent bystander). I don't have specific details handy at the moment. That's all I can remember.
I responded to a gang shooting in December 1993 or 1994 (Bremerton PD, Bremerton, WA) in which an asian gang member had been shot, while seated, in the left side of the neck with a 9mm 124gr JHP bullet. The bullet traversed his neck, missing important structures, and exited near the neck/shoulder junction on the opposite side, ripping through his Oakland Raiders NFL Starter jacket. The bullet then struck the guy's girlfriend in the back. (She'd also been seated, but with her back to him talking to her girlfriends.) When paramedics arrived they cut away her shirt and the expanded bullet fell onto the floor. I estimated the penetration path through the guy's neck was about 5-6 inches total (he colorfully expressed his displeasure when he realized I was more interested in examining the physical aspects of his wound instead of administering first aid before paramedics arrived - I told him to stop being a puss about it). Factor in the holdback effect of skin on the exit side, which provides resistance of as much as 4 inches of muscle tissue, and the girlfriend's flesh wound, and the bullet's total penetration potential of 9-11 inches was realized and expended. Indeed, the bullet can be said to have "overpenetrated" but the circumstances don't reflect most people's stereotype of "overpenetration."
Cheers!
Last edited:
Yes and/or no. With every shooting, there are both legal and moral implications.What you hit you buy. That includes the consequences for killing a person or injuring them.
From a legal standpoint, as least in my reading of Georgia's criminal code, if you are involved in a legally justified self-defense shooting and you accidentally injure an innocent person, you are not guilty of a crime if your action was not done in "a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby." Although Georgia is where I live and the laws differ from other states, my understanding is that the same idea is generally true for every state.
For discussion purposes, here is the verbatim text of O.G.C.A. Sections 16-2-1 and 16-2-2:
For example, if an armed intruder rushes you, you shoot him, your bullet hits him, and then overpenetrates and hits an innocent bystander, you would not be guilty of a crime because there would be no intention to harm the innocent person or criminal negligence on your part. That's pretty clear given you actually hit the BG.16-2-1.
(a) A 'crime' is a violation of a statute of this state in which there is a joint operation of an act or omission to act and intention or criminal negligence.
(b) Criminal negligence is an act or failure to act which demonstrates a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby.
16-2-2.
A person shall not be found guilty of any crime committed by misfortune or accident where it satisfactorily appears there was no criminal scheme or undertaking, intention, or criminal negligence.
On the other hand, if you fire a warning shot and that bullet hits a kid in his tree house, a jury could easily find that your action demonstrated a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby. The same could likely be said if you fired multiple rounds at a fleeing BG who is running through a playground full of kids. You get the idea.
All of the above is based on your not using some oddball type of ammo that you expected would overpenetrate, although I can't think of any such thing except some freakish bullet you made yourself.
But then there's also the moral element. Even if you are legally justified in your actions, I believe every upstanding citizen who embarks on his or her own self-defense has a moral obligation to select a means of self-defense that minimizes the risks to innocents as much as is practical while still providing a high-level of effective self-defense.
The answer to that moral equation will not always be HP. From my reading of the literature, effective self-defense in .380 ACP is likely best accomplished with FMJ, while .45 ACP is likely best accomplished with HP, and rifle and shotgun ammo choices may require entirely different calculations.
Both the legal and moral elements must be balanced. And as always, no matter what choice someone else makes, YMMV.
P.S.: This does not address any civil liability. However, if your self-defense justification is strong in a criminal case, it should see you through a civil suit.
Last edited: