good penetration, vs. overpenetration

H

headbangerJD

New member
I see a lot of this in forums when people are talking about different calibers. Some calibers do not penetrate far enough
& some calibers have the potential to overpenetrate.

Is there a caliber/bullet configuration that consistently stays within the recommended amount of penetration?
 
 
It depends on what you're trying to do. There's a multitude of various bullets to choose from for the desired result. If you want to kill a grizzly bear charging at you having a bullet that will penetrate any part of that bear you'll find very important. If you use a light bullet designed to open up on a deer you are going to die. There are bullets that will explode on impact and bullets that will hardly even get deformed hitting a rock.
Same with SD bullets. It depends on what the bullet hits and penetrates and the design of the bullet. Just like many things you have to choose the best compromise for your use.
 
I see a lot of this in forums when people are talking about different calibers. Some calibers do not penetrate far enough
& some calibers have the potential to overpenetrate.
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Calibers neither under nor over penetrate. At least not the most common ones used for SD. You have to look at the bullets used in those calibers.

In each caliber we can find ammunition that over penetrates, and some that under penetrates.

Those that don't penetrate enough for some folks have plenty of penetration where others are concerned.

Some bullets that expand too fast and break up, may under penetrate by everyone's standards.

Common sense would indicate a proper relationship between expansion and penetration (and still produces lots of disagreement), though, these days, bullets that punch thru cars are favorites of LE and some civilians, as well.:cool:
 
I've always thought it was a silly argument in the end....

Just way too much thought on something that is highly subjective to a specific moment.

And keep in mind that if a really bad thing happens where you have to shoot someone it is not going to be like at the testing range where you carefully aim and shoot one round and then go and analyze the milk jug, yellow pages, or ballistic gel.... let alone having probably fired more than just one shot.

One thing about over penetration: now you got two holes for the price of one bullet, and the second hole is usually a real doozy.
 
blume357 said:
One thing about over penetration: now you got two holes for the price of one bullet, and the second hole is usually a real doozy.
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Very well said. :)

If you're looking for big and consistent expansion to bullet size ratios with decent penetration, I've read good things about the Hornady Critical Defense ammo.
 
I sorta like what bloom357 said, too.

Gel test reports are good for comparison only. The gel imitates flesh, not bone or internal organs and certainly not clothing. A bullet advertising 16" penetration (Corbon 9mm DPX, for example) will probably not reach that after going through clothes and bone. It still must reach vitals to be effective, though.

For that reason, I'd pick a round that gets "better than needed" penetration in plain gel.

Heavier bullets penetrate better, given enough velocity.

FWIW - a man was shot once in the upper chest from a distance of 15' by a local cop using a Glock .40 S&W service pistol (type of round unknown). The bullet did NOT go completely through. However, the man was immediately stopped and died the next day.

Ideally, you're looking for a round that will penetrate to vital organs and do a LOT of damage getting there.
 
though, these days, bullets that punch thru cars are favorites of LE and some civilians, as well.
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So there's no such thing as over penetration because one never knows what situation one will find themselves in.

I can't remember where I heard this, but it makes sense and applies to our discussion...

"In order for there to be sufficiency there must be excess"
 
Overpenetration is, IMHO, overblown. The phenomenon was first brought to light by LEO's who were trying to justify the use of then-politically-incorrect JHP ammunition. Documented accounts of innocent bystanders being seriously injured or killed by overpenetrating bullets are extremely rare (I've never personally seen one). Also, any bullet that meets the FBI's 12-16" penetration standards has at least some risk of overpenetration. In my opinion, adjustment of tactics rather than caliber or ammunition is a better solution to the issue of overpenetration. Personally, I want a through and through shot with expansion as the bullet will be damaging tissue all the way through the target. A bullet that stops inside its target cannot damage tissue beyond its maximum penetration depth.
 
No, the cases of over penetration are not overblown. Massad Ayoob and others have documented this phenomenon very well.

The casualty list is high. For New York City alone there were over 70 cases alone for the police . That's over a few years time. Add into it the civilian casualty list and it is not small by any means. That's killed,injured, and crippled for life.

That is just one municipality. Figure in the figures for the rest of the country.
Human life is precious. If not then the person should not be carrying a gun. Those with no respect for life have no moral or ethics from which to draw on.

What you hit you buy. That includes the consequences for killing a person or injuring them.
 
No, the cases of over penetration are not overblown. Massad Ayoob and others have documented this phenomenon very well.

The casualty list is high. For New York City alone there were over 70 cases alone for the police . That's over a few years time. Add into it the civilian casualty list and it is not small by any means. That's killed,injured, and crippled for life.
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Have any links?

Also, the NYPD stayed with FMJ ammo much longer than most other PD's out of misguided polictical correctness.

Human life is precious. If not then the person should not be carrying a gun. Those with no respect for life have no moral or ethics from which to draw on.
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Who has ever suggested that human life is not precious? No one has ever suggested that overpenetration is impossible, rather that it's just not the issue it's made out to be. I suggested that tactics was the proper venue to address it rather than equipment. Apparently, the FBI (and every other LE agency that adheres to their standards) agrees as their penetration standards represent risk of overpenetration. Are you suggesting that the FBI and other LE agencies don't view human life as precious?
 
Webleymkv...You should check on what you post. You said you want a through and through shot. Sounds like you're not too concerned about who might be on the other side.
 
Webleymkv...You should check on what you post. You said you want a through and through shot. Sounds like you're not too concerned about who might be on the other side.
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Water-Man, you should read my posts more carefully. In post #10, I stated the following:

In my opinion, adjustment of tactics rather than caliber or ammunition is a better solution to the issue of overpenetration.
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And again in post #12, I stated this:

I suggested that tactics was the proper venue to address it rather than equipment.
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It's not that I don't care what's on the other side, I just think that there are better ways to address it than using shallow-penetrating bullets.
 
As soon as you can figure out the exact path of the bullet through the exact assailant you might be able to select a caliber and round that will halt the assailant's actions while not having any chance of over-penetration.

Maybe you can ask them to hold still while you decide what to do.

Handguns are already lower power weapons, and more than one shot may be required to stop an assailant.

Over analyzing the problem will not crate a solution, since there is not really a solution that will reliably fulfill all the requirements.

The ultimate over penetration issue occurs with bullets that miss the intended target.
 
Webleymkv... I don't care what else you said!! What I stated in my post is what you said. Period! Admit it or drop it!
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Yes, that's what I said, but it was taken out of context. When you cherry-pick parts of statements, it gives the impression that either you're not reading the post carefully, or you're deliberately trying to misrepresent my meaning.
 
Good topic anyway.
Some of us pencil necked geeks aren't even 12" from front to back. And down here it's hot so we only wear T-shirts. But I do understand the need for "enough" penetration in places where a bunch of winter whales wear layered clothes and thick puffy Eskimo Parka sealskin/leather coats.... or Grizzley Bear hunting.

Seriously though, "Adequate" penetration matters IF a shot goes through an arm, wall or other obstical first.
 
One thing about over penetration: now you got two holes for the price of one bullet, and the second hole is usually a real doozy.
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It's the third hole than can be the real doozy. Wait until you're sitting in the defendants' seat in court.:cool:
 
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