Good Enough?
- Thread starter sirgilligan
- Start date
Not necessarily.
Depending on the trade off; and it is not always about the money.
For example: having a 1 lbs or less trigger will increase accuracy potential in a firearm (compared to a factory much heavier pull); however, just how many folks are fitting their firearms with 3 ounce triggers?
While a very light trigger pull is a joy in and of itself, it is not necessarily the best choice for all applications. I personally have very light triggers, Jewel and Volquartsen, in my target rifles, but not in my hunting rifles.
I'm still waiting for a firearm with the following features:
1. 1 MOA at 200 yards
2. semi-auto
3. .308
6. 50 round magazines
7. Felt Recoil of a Kriss
8. Reliability of a Polytech Legend AK and a Glock 17
9. Weighs less than 8 pounds, but mostly all metal.
10. Over-all length of about 36"; 26" with stock folded/collapsed.
The SCAR-17 might be pretty close....Jury is still out.
1. 1 MOA at 200 yards
2. semi-auto
3. .308
6. 50 round magazines
7. Felt Recoil of a Kriss
8. Reliability of a Polytech Legend AK and a Glock 17
9. Weighs less than 8 pounds, but mostly all metal.
10. Over-all length of about 36"; 26" with stock folded/collapsed.
The SCAR-17 might be pretty close....Jury is still out.
Skans even if the above weapon sold for $500 or less there would be some here who would only be satisfied with sub MOA at 500 yards, have issues with the manufacturer, find the ammo/bullet selection unacceptable, object to the plastic used, not like the cleaning/maintenance procedures, or have some other reason this weapon was unacceptable. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder don't you know...
Sorry Hal this is not a matter of opinion. See this is where discussions like this go of the rails. People do not know where facts/data and objective points end and opinions begins.
For me if you want to talk "mechanical accuracy" the only way to determine it with a metal gun like a 1911 is from a ransom rest at 50 yards. Ransom rest do not work for polys because of the flex of their plastic frames. This is where the wheat separates from the chaff. Look up the Severns Custom threads testing the accuracy of several top production and semi-custom pistols. You will find that Ed Brown is a nice looking pistol but that in the 5" Govt sized category the only gun it out shot was a Colt Combat Elite.
Results
1. Severns Modified Valor 0.98”
2. Les Baer TRS 1.17”
3. Dan Wesson Valor 1.36“
4. Fusion CBOB 1.44”
4. Sig GSR 1.76”
5. Kimber Classic Custom 1.94”
6. Ed Brown Kobra 1.96”
7. Colt Combat Elite 5.03”
This is not a knock on Ed Browns. I love them and plan on getting one eventually but they are not know for their "mechanical accuracy." This is not the only objective testing which bears out this result just the first one that comes to mind.
For me the point of "mechanical accuracy" is moot in that I am not capable of utilizing the difference between a 1.5" gun at 50 yard and a 3" gun at 50 yards. The reality is that 99% of shooter fall into the same category. People lie all the time about what kind of groups they can and cannot shoot. The real reality is that 99% of even production guns are more accurate from a mechanical stand point than the people shooting them.
IMHO almost any handgun on the market at self defense ranges meets the "good enough" requirement as far as mechanical accuracy is concern. A Hi Point with its fixed barrel can shoot 1 ragged hole a 7 yards from a rest. When we stretch out this some are better than others but again almost all guns mechanically are more accurate than the shooter. Some things like trigger, sights, sight radius make it harder to get the maximum out of a given gun but it does not mean the potential is not there.
The real question is always what can "you" do with it in your hands. This is where Hal's subjective world begins. I do not like the trigger on the Hi Point. I am spoiled but clean crisp responsive triggers. I like BHPs and 1911s for this reason. I can still shoot a Glock 19 well enough but it is not my preferred trigger and results will suffer not because the Glock 19 is not capable but because I am not up to the task. The other thing that is missing from this discussion IMHO is that time on a platform, the building of muscle memory and familiarity create better results overtime even though a particular guns characteristics have not changed. If for 6 months I shot nothing but a Glock 19 I can guarantee that I would become more accurate with it.
So in the end "good enough" accuracy is whatever you choose or determine it to be. It is variable and changes from person to person and from situation to situation. IMHO. It is not a fixed stationary objective target but instead a moving subjective one. "Mechanical accuracy"on the other hand is a matter of objective scientific testing which is demonstrable and repeatable.
For me if you want to talk "mechanical accuracy" the only way to determine it with a metal gun like a 1911 is from a ransom rest at 50 yards. Ransom rest do not work for polys because of the flex of their plastic frames. This is where the wheat separates from the chaff. Look up the Severns Custom threads testing the accuracy of several top production and semi-custom pistols. You will find that Ed Brown is a nice looking pistol but that in the 5" Govt sized category the only gun it out shot was a Colt Combat Elite.
Results
1. Severns Modified Valor 0.98”
2. Les Baer TRS 1.17”
3. Dan Wesson Valor 1.36“
4. Fusion CBOB 1.44”
4. Sig GSR 1.76”
5. Kimber Classic Custom 1.94”
6. Ed Brown Kobra 1.96”
7. Colt Combat Elite 5.03”
This is not a knock on Ed Browns. I love them and plan on getting one eventually but they are not know for their "mechanical accuracy." This is not the only objective testing which bears out this result just the first one that comes to mind.
For me the point of "mechanical accuracy" is moot in that I am not capable of utilizing the difference between a 1.5" gun at 50 yard and a 3" gun at 50 yards. The reality is that 99% of shooter fall into the same category. People lie all the time about what kind of groups they can and cannot shoot. The real reality is that 99% of even production guns are more accurate from a mechanical stand point than the people shooting them.
IMHO almost any handgun on the market at self defense ranges meets the "good enough" requirement as far as mechanical accuracy is concern. A Hi Point with its fixed barrel can shoot 1 ragged hole a 7 yards from a rest. When we stretch out this some are better than others but again almost all guns mechanically are more accurate than the shooter. Some things like trigger, sights, sight radius make it harder to get the maximum out of a given gun but it does not mean the potential is not there.
The real question is always what can "you" do with it in your hands. This is where Hal's subjective world begins. I do not like the trigger on the Hi Point. I am spoiled but clean crisp responsive triggers. I like BHPs and 1911s for this reason. I can still shoot a Glock 19 well enough but it is not my preferred trigger and results will suffer not because the Glock 19 is not capable but because I am not up to the task. The other thing that is missing from this discussion IMHO is that time on a platform, the building of muscle memory and familiarity create better results overtime even though a particular guns characteristics have not changed. If for 6 months I shot nothing but a Glock 19 I can guarantee that I would become more accurate with it.
So in the end "good enough" accuracy is whatever you choose or determine it to be. It is variable and changes from person to person and from situation to situation. IMHO. It is not a fixed stationary objective target but instead a moving subjective one. "Mechanical accuracy"on the other hand is a matter of objective scientific testing which is demonstrable and repeatable.
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" propose that any gun owner would prefer better accuracy from any firearm over less accuracy."
But what firearm is offered with a choice of accuracy option? If a specific rifle is offered with the option of a better barrel, well, it's not the same firearm, is it?
If a Chevy was a Ferrari it wouldn't be a Chevy. A Malibu isn't a Corvette. You have to buy want you want to have.
Maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to get at.
John
But what firearm is offered with a choice of accuracy option? If a specific rifle is offered with the option of a better barrel, well, it's not the same firearm, is it?
If a Chevy was a Ferrari it wouldn't be a Chevy. A Malibu isn't a Corvette. You have to buy want you want to have.
Maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to get at.
John
sirgilligan
New member
I think you just took the proposal to one of the many "next" steps in such a discussion.
I have two Browning Hi-Power pistols (BHPs).
My brother and myself had a little competition with them. I was consistently getting better ten round groups than him, by about half an inch. He said, "Switch guns". Dang it. Now he was winning.
I love them both. Not much difference in them at all. But which do I prefer? The one that is more accurate.
I have a new toy in the tool box now. A CZ 85B. Haven't compared it head to head with my favorite BHP yet. However, I do know I shoot it better than I do a Glock (not sure the model, but a midsize Gen 3 of my cousin) and better than a SIG 226. Now this brings the other factors that WVSig points out. CZ's point and hold similar to a BHP. Therefore my experience and muscle memory and such are better suited to the CZ.
My Ruger Mark II with the semi-bull barrel is not the same gun as my brother's Ruger Mark II with the full-bull barrel. Two different guns, IMO.
But you really don't know which one is more accurate from a mechanical stand point. You know which one is more accurate in your hand and in your brothers hand but that does not equal objective truth. You can only say that one is objectively more accurate if you remove the human shooter variable.
Since we are talking BHPs I am willing to bet that one of the triggers is better than the other. I am willing to bet one is cleaner, lighter and smoother than the other.
I currently own 4 different BHPs. Each one is different. I shoot some better than others but I am 100% positive that if I put the in a Ransom Rest the differences would shrink if not dissappear.
sirgilligan
New member
If I bet you are right do I get the money?
I agree with your entire statement.
Yes!!!! Check is in the mail.
I think the whole accuracy thing is overblown. It is almost always the indian not the arrow.
I personally know that in my case the gun is never the weakest link. that does not mean I do not shoot some better than others but they are all more accuracte than I am.
I think the whole accuracy thing is overblown. It is almost always the indian not the arrow.
I personally know that in my case the gun is never the weakest link. that does not mean I do not shoot some better than others but they are all more accuracte than I am.
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sirgilligan
New member
And I went with it too, like low hanging fruit. Sorry.