Good AR for the $$?

I did not mean to imply that a Bushmaster was as good as a Colt. It is however a much better made rifle than those that I listed above based on those
material quality and manufacturing process, where no room for opinion exists.
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All you have to do is pull up the specs and see what barrel material is made of, is it chrome lined bore or not, does it have parkerized and chrome lined bolt and gas key. These are a a few of the things people must look at before spouting off about a rifle's quality when they apparently don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.
 
This thread has got way off course here. To give opinion on the OP, the Bushmasters are a good rifle, but your problem here is you are shopping Cabela's for a rifle. Unless you catch one of their good sales, their guns are usually overpriced.
 
In reference to cheap ARs, GanderMountain is advertising a Smith&Wesson MP15 Sport with 3 free 30 round magazines for $679.

FYI reliable Magpul polymer Pmags run around $15 a piece and metal GI mags sometimes a little less.

I don't normally buy guns at Gander since they are a little overpriced compared to local gunshops but they occasionally have good deals.

S&W has a lifetime warranty and excellent Customer Service.

The MP15 Sport is a bare bones AR missing some non essential features on the receiver like a dust cover and a manual bolt carrier closer (I forget the technical term for that next to useless metal button behind the brass deflector on the right side of a standard AR receiver) and is analogous to the bare bones Bushmaster but its made of aluminum instead of polymer like the Carbon Bushmaster.

For target shooting/plinking, I don't see anything wrong with starting with an inexpensive AR and adding modifications down the road like aftermarket grips, hanguards, buttstocks, red dots, etc. as your interest and disposable income grows.

The sub $700 AR may not perform as well as the upper tier $1000+ Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT, BCM, LMT in combat situations in Iraq/Afganistan but for casual hobbie shooting and a just in case home defense gun, I don't see an issue in reliability or its ability to fulfill its intended use.
 
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In reference to cheap ARs, GanderMountain is advertising a Smith&Wesson MP15 Sport with 3 free 30 round magazines for $679.

FYI reliable Magpul polymer Pmags run around $15 a piece and metal GI mags sometimes a little less.
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I bought mine for $599 + 2 extra Pmags for $30. $673 total with tax. I guess an extra $50 for Gander Mt isn't so bad.
 
Sheer nonsense. If anything, Bushmaster is upper mid tier. It is in no way in the same lower tier with S&W, Olympic Arms, Dpms and many others. Why don't some of you do some actual research into the specs and materials used before repeating internet nonsense?
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Go to Lightfighter. Join. Read the AARs and search for Bushamster (spelled that way on purpose). There is a reason they are referred to like that.

My personal experience with Bushmaster (circa 2005-2007) (XM15 M4geries):

Rifle #1 - Ejection port cover would not close because there was a huge chunk of aluminum where a mill cutter had apparently broken off during machining and they assembled and shipped the rifle anyway....:confused:

Rifle #2 - Could not zero the rifle a 50 yards, ran completely out of left windage.:confused:

Rifle #3 - Gas problem. Either undergassed or loose gas key. Would not cycle through a whole magazine without a short stroke.:confused:

Rifle #4 - Could not get the rear pin out to take out the BCG to check the staking on the gas key. Dealer used a hammer and brass punch and could only get the pin out 1/2 way. I didn't accept the rifle.

(You would have thought I would have learned by now....:rolleyes:)

Rifle #5 - Okay. Still had to go 12 clicks left windage, but at least it was operable.

Rifle #6- Okay. Best of the bunch, nothing that I could find wrong with.

Rifle #7 - Okay. (Full sized HBAR model)


Is it possible to get a decent rifle? Yes. The problem is that with their QC system it was a roll of the dice.

Since closing of the Wyndam facility and the absorption of the brand into Remington and relocation of assembly to Illion, I don't know. I haven't tried to purchase a Bushmaster since 2007 (And I don't plan to either.)

As an aside. I had some Bushmaster spare parts on hand and after I got my Colt 6920 I disassembled them and compared the parts. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference in the quality of parts used the the Colt versus those used in the Bushmaster. I promptly sold the Bushmaster parts.

My only experience with S&W are 2 rifles that my buddies here at work have. They have no problems at all. Most trainers recommend avoiding Bushmaster, but do not say the same thing about S&W.
 
Bushmaster = 1 year warranty... hmmm
Smith & Wesson = Lifetime Warranty

In all honesty I would spend ~$700-750 and buy a Stag Arms with a life time warranty if you weren't interested in building one yourself. You will get most of the features the other said rifles are lacking.

Stag makes a great gun for an affordable price.. american made, lifetime warranty.. I had one that ran just as well as my BCM.

Their parent company CMT has been making parts for most of the AR industry for years, as well as some parts on the M16's. Not to mention they also do Aerospace and other parts as well. Most notably in the AR world is Noveske uses CMT uppers and lowers on their rifles.
 
Bushmasters are low end quality. Spikes would be my low cost option great qualityfor the $$$. Other than that my choice is Bravo Company or colt.
 
Thank you for all the info, I appreciate it.
I went to Gander Mountain and bought a S&W AR 15 Sport. 611.00 + tax with my son's discount. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but will with in a couple days. If it shoots as good as it looks I will be happy.
 
Congrats Rebs on your purchase - two things, clean it good and replace the handguard with one that has a heat shield.

Good luck and safe shooting.
 
Do you mean clean it good before the first shooting or keep it clean ? What is a heat shield in the handrail ?
This is my first AR 15 and I have a lot to learn.
 
Clean it before shooting it for the first time. I don't clean mine after every range trip usually based more on how many rounds or how dirty it looks. I also run mine pretty dry. Meaning, I wipe it with a good gun oil after cleaning and wipe it down again.

The handguard you have on now is just a plastic shell. It will get warm fast if you shoot more than 20 rounds. a handguard with a heat shield has an aluminum plate inside the handguard that keeps the heat from getting through.
 
When i was buying a pistol i considered it important to get a good reputable brand since each company has its own designs. When i went looking for an AR15 rifle I was also looking at the higher priced options. But then i got to thinking. The AR15 is a standardized design which has a certain set of specifications. So, i feel that each manufacturer just takes the blueprints for the gun and plugs it into their CNC machine which cuts most of the parts automatically. SO, i figure that with a standard design, and such modern manucfacturing technology, shouldn't most AR15 rifles be almost identical. It is my opinion that their is not much difference between the AR15s in the under 1000 dollar price range. S&W, Stag, DPMS, they are all the same design and they are all made of the same materials. They only thing that could really vary would be the quality of the company's labor. Now, once you get above the 1000 dollar mark, it looks like you get some stronger steels for the barrels and bolts, and maybe some better coatings, and for really good ones you get cold hammer forged barrels. All in all, i believe that all the entry level models must be very equivelant assuming they are using the same quality metals. if you look at specs on most brands they are 7075 T6 aluminum, 4140 chromoly steel with or without chrome lining, 8620 steel bolt, phospate coating and so on. So if they are all built to the same blue print using the same parts, and materials what can vary besides labor? Any input?
 
There is a decent amount of variation even between the "less than 1000$" rifles. You can build a bcm and get colts for under a grand though, so pricepoint isnt the best way to judge an ar (I see bushmasters for 1200+ all the time).

Materials used, testing done (if any at all), and assembly process are all going to be slightly different. A solid company like BCM/Colt are going to excel at all 3, a lesser company might claim to be great at all but deliver poor quality control or have lesser quality on the assembly side.
 
So if they are all built to the same blue print using the same parts, and materials what can vary besides labor? Any input?
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That is the problem. They aren't all built to the same "blueprint". Only Colt (and now the DOD) has access to the "blueprint". That blueprint is known as the TDP or Technical Data Package. That is a list of manufacturing prints and tolerances that tells a manufacturer what material, what size and what tests have to be done to a part before it is acceptable.

All but a few of the AR "manufacturers" are assemblers. Some make a few parts, others just put them together. Just like people "building their own". They buy parts on the open market for the best price they can get them for and then assemble them and sell them. A good test is to get the address of the company and use Google Earth and look at their facility. You will be surprised....

The big problem with this is that not all assemblers are building with the best quality parts and they aren't necessarily testing them correctly either.

If a manufacturer is making a "entry level" rifle. Chances are it is because they are using parts that are made out of non-TDP materials that aren't necessarily tested correctly, or at all. Their expectation is that these rifles will be fired for 100 rounds every couple of months from the bench for accuracy and will mostly sit in a gun safe and have doodads attached and removed at random with pictures taken and posted on Facebook or internet forums. Those rifles tend to be 4140 steel 1/9 twist with .223 chambers using non-MPI inspected, Non HPT bolts that may or may not be chrome lined that are over-gassed and undersprung/buffered. If one happens to fail, not a problem. Send out a replacement part and the buyer will be tickled pink by the "great customer service".

There is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone needs or wants a "combat rifle." But they aren't the same, and a buyer needs to tailor his/her purchase towards expected use.
 
Do you think their is a big difference between 4140 and 4150? and if there is, what is the difference and does it matter for a semi-auto gun? I wonder what most bolt, lever, and semi-auto rifle's barrels are made of? Plus, as far as specs go, they must be somewhat similar considering the parts are meant to be interchangeable. When you go to the store to buy a new BCG you don't have to get a tailor fitted one for your specific gun. The AR is designed to be able to replace parts in a drop in fashion without special fitting that is common on other type rifles. opinions?
 
There isn't a big difference between 4140 and 4150. Most guns are made of 4140, however the specification calls for 4150. From a materials property standpoint 4140 is typically stronger and easier to machine.

Military guns ONLY get 4150 steel and a specific type of 4150 steel at that. One that is made specifically for M16 FOW barrels. It has better hardening properties but it is harder to machine.

This isn't really necessary at all for a semiauto gun, but using a 4140 barrel is generally a good sign that other specifications weren't followed either. (5.56 chamber, HPT, MPI, etc)

Just because something will fit together, it doesn't mean that it is made the same or held to the same standards. There are alot of manufacturers that make parts specifically for hobby/hunting rifles.

You can make a bolt to the print dimensions, but if you don't make it out of the correct steel, harden it to the correct surface hardness, shot peen it to stress relieve it, high pressure test it with a proof load and then check it with magnetic particle inspection (or something) to make sure it didn't crack, you might get a bolt that will last 10,000 rounds or you might get one that lasts 100. You don't know. When you are buying certain manufacturers parts/rifles this is what you are getting.

Think about it this way. You can go to the store and buy name brand tires with a 60,000 mile rating or you can get an off brand tire with a 20,000 mile rating. Both of them will fit on your wheel. One will most likely last longer, the other probably won't.

Same thing with rifles.

There is nothing wrong with this by the way.

A person shooting 100 round every other month from a bench trying to put it in the same hole or who is sitting on a hill calling in Coyotes or popping p-dogs at 600 yards doesn't need a rifle with a 5.56 chamber and the correct barrel steel for full-auto in their rifle. (it most likely will be detrimental) Assuming the rifle has a good warranty, they don't need to worry about how the bolt was made either, because worst case they have to call it a day on the range/hunting field if their bolt breaks a lug shears at the cam pin hole. The can just get a new bolt from the manufacturer.
 
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and a manual bolt carrier closer (I forget the technical term for that next to useless metal button behind the brass deflector on the right side of a standard AR receiver)
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Forward assist..... ???? I could be wrong,.... just thinking out loud :confused:






;)
 
Agree with Crow Hunter. There is a whole lot more to making a part than simply milling it to the correct dimensions. Geometric tolerances are the most basic specifications.

This is why an industrial grade 3/8 inch 18-8 stainless steel bolt retails for about $12, but the "same" bolt used in an aerospace application will cost $40 - $120 depending on what level of testing and certification is required.

And I also agree with him that most of us do not need mil-spec AR-15. I certainly don't. I will shoot about 1000 rounds per year, spread over 4 to 8 shooting sessions, and I will clean and inspect after every trip to the range. the rest of the time the weapon will be kept in a climate controlled environment (my house) next to an antique shotgun and a hunting rifle with a fancy walnut stock. The probability that I will ever need to use my AR-15 to defend life is very remote..... but even assuming that I will use it to defend life, it will be a single momentary event, involving a low number of rounds. Virtually any AR-15 would be up to the task.

The Army and Marines want to procure a weapon that will last through many tours of duty by many soldiers and marines. A weapon that will serve and survive through many combat operations, and endless training operations. It was for this need that the TDP has evolved into its current state.
 
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