Golden Sabre vs. Gold Dot

L

long shot

New member
Which is the better self defense load?I currently carry a glock 19 and 23,also keep g22 as bedside gun.In 9mm i prefer 124gr.+p,and in .40 155gr. and up.I`m most interested in penitration and expansion through heavy cloth.Any help is appreciated.Thanks,Long Shot.
 
i have done extensive on many of the various .40 S&W hollowpoint ammo available on the market today. the Remington Golden Saber is one of my favorites. it feeds well from almost any pistol. it is accurate enough for any self defense problem and more than OK in some barrels. i tested the 165 Golden Sabers, 135 Corbons, 155 grain XTP's, 155 Silver Tips, 180 Hydroshocks and 180 Black Talons using water jugs dressed in various types of clothing. i also tested them against dummy chests made of a water jug (heart,aorta) wet foam packing (lungs), fresh deer ribs and wet news print wrapping. in every case i had failure to expand wehn hollowpoints plugged up with cloth and/or down from an old jacket. many hollowpoints that expanded in water jugs alone every time, failed to expand when passed thru clothes first. what follows is the bullets tested in order of my prefference. the exact figures and failure rates are to lenghty to list here. 165 Golden Saber, performed best, my favorite, lowest rate of failures in all testing, expanded when plugged up and did not fragment when shot into water at close range. 135 Corbons and 155 Silver tips, showed tendancy to fragment at close ranges with low pentration, best loads if over penetration is a problem, did not plug up with cloth but easily deflected by bone ect., 155 grain XTP's, easily plugged up and over penetrated, did not expand well on close shots either, poor choice in my tests. 180 grain hydroshocks, expanded well in close shooting at bare jugs, resisted defelection well, 35% failure rate to expand when shot into down jacket material or mutiple layer jean material, dangerous overpenetrator when not expanded. 180 Black Talon, spectacular expander against bare jugs of water, razor sharp talons just like the ads, plugged regularly with mutiple clothing layers, jacket failure on bone also regularly, dangerous over penetrator when it does not expand. i also tested my first choice in .40 S&W, the 165 Golden Sabers on deer using a custom Contender barrel. i set up stands where i would be shooting deer at distances wher the bullet speed hitting the deer would aproximate the 1000 FPS terminal velocity that i was getting from my S&W 4006 at 7 yards. in every case i got great one shot kills when i placed the bullet in the chest/lung area. when recovered the Sabers averaged .60 caliber and hydrostatic damage to the deer's chest was significant. kills were fast and even when striking bone the bullet held together. very impressive!! 135 grain Corbon ammo is my second choice in .40 S&W in similar deer tests bullets never made it thru the deer's chest and often they tumbled in the chest cavity expanded to .50 to .64 caliber. some exploded in the deer's chest and wound profile looked like a big firecracker had gone off in the chest. kills where quick and bleed out was awsome. i hope some of this helps.
 
Long Shot:

Get a book from Duncan Long titled, "Bullet Penetration." He is a Scientist who relies on data to make judgements, not hype. In the same book, an MD, Martin Fackler, tells us facts from recordable incidents with available references as to what incapacitates a person after they have been shot with a given projectile.

Be wary of those offering advice from home-spun tests. These are quite interesting, and I have done them myself. My tests included shooting chunks of ice from 55 gal barrels left outside in the winter, shooting wet phone books, shooting mud, and I even shot several horses when it was their time to go and I lived on the farm. None of those tests, as interesting as they were, told me diddly about the ammo I was using.

Good data regarding terminal ballistics includes some standardized test following a given criteria, shot against a control sample. This means ballistic gelatin made a certain way, calibrated, and shot at a given temperature. The gelatin is shot using the FBI or IWBA (Intl. Wound Ballistics Assn.) protocol for:

1. Bare Gelatin @ 10 ft.
2. Heavy Clothing @ 10 ft.
3. Automobile Glass, tilted 45 deg, offset 15 deg. @ 10 ft.
4. Plywood @ 10 ft.
5. Wallboard, two pieces @ 10 ft.
6. Light Cloting @ 50 ft.
7. Heavy Clothing @ 20 yds.
8. Automobile Glass no 15 deg offset @ 20 yds.

And... IWBA 4 layers of heavy clothing.

Each round should be chronographed during the test, etc... This series of tests include shooting against heavy clothing. Some bullets do plug in this test, others do not. Gold Dot does not.

Forgive me if I'm boring you. There are lots of opinions out there, and now you have some of mine. If it matters to you, New York City PD carries Gold Dot 9mm 124 +P. My wife packs that in her 9mm. In my .45 I have 230 gr. GDHP. The .40 155, if it is anything like the 9mm or .45 Gold Dot, should work just as well. The Gold Dot is the only bullet out there with a plated jacket, eliminating core-jacket separation. It has flash supressed powder. Try it at night, you'll be amazed.

If you want to know more, put up another post requesting data on the FBI test protocol.

Good Shooting,

Slim
 
truley no flame intended to anyone (not really sure but i think i have been LOL) but the FBI scientific method has given us many advances, some good, some farces. i am thankfull for thier help in developing the 10mm lite (aka .40 S&W), i saw them finally realize that the .45 was a real law enforcement cartridge (there's a 100 year old flash). p.s. which hollowpoint did the FBI use as an accuracy standard in testing the new FBI .45's (Golden Sabers) it does not take a rocket scientist to tell which hollow point bullets are prone to plug up despite the hype. it also does not take a thermally correct block of ballistic gelatin to see that the 135 grain Corbon hits a deer like a small piece of C4 and explodes about half of the time. i have never been attacked by a piece of gelatin. truth is any of the good commercial self defense ammo will kill like hot lighting in the right situation, make that a marginal situation and even the best wonder bullets are just a chunks of lead and copper or brass. no WONDER bullet is a replacement for markmanship. my report was based on almost a year of testing while i lived on a farm that was seeking to thin it's deer population (a dirty job but somebody had to do it). besides it's fun to try and test the results paraded in the gun rags and by the bullet gurus. if my actual test criteria and studies on live animals (small does roughly the chest size of a man) does not live up to your magazine and book experience excuse me. seems like everyone has thier own egg to fry when it comes to gun and/or bullet type. my brother shoots gold dot in his .45 and i am sure it is a fine bullet (they were not available when i tested). perhaps this fall i will purcase some gold dot in .40 and dust off the Contender. look out deer. i will keep you all posted. oh but beware my home-spun reports. sorry i could not resist.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
I've seen lots of Golden Saber bullets (of all calibers)lose their jackets after passing though heavy clothing. The brass jacket expands beautifully but the lead core does not. It appears to me that the drag forces on the jacket petals as the bullet penetrates causes it to detach from the core. Many times the lead core exits the back of my 18-inch long gelatin blocks while the brass jacket is found about 1/2 way down the permanent cavity. Other times the lead core detaches and remains in the block and it shows little expansion.

I feel the Speer Gold Dot bullet is superior to the Golden Saber.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
all in fun my man, all in fun. like i said the Gold Dot was not available when i tested last. it is easier to get in my area than Golden Saber so i am strongly considering what you guys have said here. when my Sabers run out i will test the Gold Dots with thoughts toward using them in the futrue. let no one say the riddle can't be taught. LOL

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Golden Sabres, and Gold Dots are both great loads. It's very hard to choose between the two. I suppose it depends on the gun you fire it from, that is always a variaqble. I would have no problem carrying either. I do and have carried them both. :cool:
 
Just a minor comment....
Speer uses CCI primers which are harder than
other brands. This only comes into play if
you shoot a revolver with a lighter than
factory spring. If I were to use a tricked
out revolver for defense, I would be careful
using Speer ammunition.


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Never do an enemy a minor injury. Machiavelli
"Stay alive with a 45"
 
after talking with our county sheriff's office and several range officers at local ranges i think the die is cast. i will start shooting Gold Dot 150 grain 40 S&W a box at a time to establish reliability and accuracy in my K40 and my S&W 4006. then when my stash of Sabers are gone i will probably make the switch. i plan on taking a few deer this fall with the Gold Dots. if that works out the switch is on. now if i could just get a deer to wear a down jacket and a couple of sweaters. LOL

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
riddleofsteel, FWIW, your initial testing was correct with regard to the G.S.{in all calibers}. The various .35 and .40 G.D's like the H.S. tend to plug passing through medium to heavy clothing. Give the G.D. a good shake, but I'll bet a good steak dinner that you'll be back to the Golden Saber. In .45 caliber once you start nipping on 900 fps virtually all of the premium loads do very well. Below about 850fps, the 230 g H.S. and G.S. have an edge even thouigh you can misplace a VW in the cavity of the G.D.

Regards, Bill
 
I THINK EITHER LOAD WILL DO THE JOB. I LIKE THE gs DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT FEEDS LIKE THEY ARE GREASED IN ANY GUN I HAVE TRIED. ALSO IN MY TESTING I TRIED TO PLUG THEM UP AND IN EVERY CASE THEY PERFORMED WELL. IT IS JUST THEY ARE HARD TO FIND HERE IN CENTRAL N.C. I WILL TEST THE GD WITH AN OPEN MIND BUT I HAVE A BIIGGG STASH OF GS. AND I WILL NOT STOP USING THEM UNTIL THAT STASH IS EXHAUSTED.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Be careful in selecting a particular round based on *ANY* law enforcement agency's choice. Ever heard of going with the "lowest bid"? ;)

I enjoy reading any and all bullet testing data, especially when it's done on subjects such as deer. In my opinion, which is as worthless as anyone else's, an average 150lb deer would be a fairly close simulation of the average human adult in regards to body mass, tissue consistency, etc...

I don't discount data obtained from shooting gelatin or any thing else. In fact, I think those tests are perfect to show how various barriers may affect a given projectile. However, I've never ran into a single felonious block of gelatin that constituted a grave danger of death or grave bodily harm to me or anyone that I had the right to protect.
In my opinion, a living, breathing and adrenaline stricken deer's reaction to a gunshot wound might closer simulate the reactions of an enraged and determined felon in the fight mode of the "fight or flight" syndrome. However, we still have to recognize that the mental process of a deer and most humans( :)) differ, therefore a deer's reaction, even if it's completely consistent for every deer shot, may differ greatly from a human hit with the same round.

Even the One Shot Stop and any other data based on human shootings has too many variables to be counted on as a rock solid means of predicting how much more effective a certain round will be than another round for "self defense". There are simply too many variables, such as mental state of subject shot, predetermined reaction to being shot, state of intoxication, etc...

My point? Read all the data you can get your eyes on, be it home spun or scientific, and take it for what it's worth. All ballistic data is simply a record of results under the circumstances and criteria in which the data was obtained. It is not, and never will be an accurate way to predict the effectiveness of a particular round under circumstances other conditions other than the ones that were present during the testing.

My advice? Choose any of the "popular" rounds that feeds reliably in your gun and practice, practice, practice with it and then practice some more.

Remember this...BULLET PLACEMENT IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN *ANY* OTHER ASPECT IN A SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING, PERIOD.

In my opinion, this is followed by penetration. After these two criteria have been met, any expansion (JHP's), cutting (Talons), or other tissue damage increasing attributes of a projectile is definitely a plus. However, it can't be reliably counted on. *All* expanding bullets are subject to failure to expand, leaving you with basically a "hard ball" caliber diameter projectile. Murphy's Law will prevail over all scientific predictions!! :)

Ok, rant off...Flame resistant suit on. :D

R6
 
PREACH ON BROTHER RAINBOW. PREACH ON. I WILL USE NO BULLET TYPE OR AMMO THAT I HAVE NOT TESTED IN THE MANNER I HAVE PRESCRIBED ABOVE. CONFIDENCE IS A CRITICAL FACTOR IN COMBAT SITUATIONS. CONFIDENCE IN YOUR SKILLS AS A SHOOTER, CONFIDENCE IN YOUR WEAPON AND CONFIDENCE IN YOUR AMMO SELECTION. THIS IS WHY WE ALL ARGUE THESE ENDLESS STRINGS ON WHAT IS THE BEST THIS OR THAT. WHEN IN FACT WE MAY BE PICKING FLY **** OUT OF PEPPER. MINOR DIFFERENCES ARE LARGELY A MENTAL THING.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Riddleofsteel is right, finding gold-dots in central NC can be a pain. I'm carrying cor-bon 135 in my fortys right now, but am contemplating a move back to 165gr Golden Sabre. Looking for a good 9mm load for my new Glock 34. Where are you at, Riddle?
 
i carry 135 Corbons in the summer months and 165 Golden Sabers in the spring/winter/fall when BG's may be wearing coats or multiole layers. i also switch to 165 GS's when i am in the woods or camping and need to be concealed. when i can carry open in the woods (hunting season ect.) i carry a Blackhawk with 250 grain XTP hollowpoints in .45 LC. i am in Greensboro N.C. where are you?

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shawn Dodson: ... I feel the Speer Gold Dot bullet is superior to the Golden Saber.[/quote]Which loads would you recommend in the different calibers? For example, with the 9mm there is the 115, 124 & 147 to choose from.
 
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