maestro pistolero
New member
Not if Canada was his final destination, and he didn't do the paperwork, because then his final destination would not be a place he could legally possess the guns.
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Going to Canada from New York State
- Thread starter Uncle Billy
- Start date
Not if Canada was his final destination, and he didn't do the paperwork, because then his final destination would not be a place he could legally possess the guns.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Not if Canada was his final destination, and he didn't do the paperwork, because then his final destination would not be a place he could legally possess the guns.
One would assume that his final destination would now be Florida.... he didn't actually GO anywhere that was not legal, he never intended NY to be his final destination, he was turned around at the border and it could reasonably be concluded that his new final destination would be home, in Florida. This should be treated no differently than if he went 50 miles into NY and realized he forgot something and turned around, or his car broke down, or someone in FL got sick... he is simply no longer making the trip as planned, nothing illegal at all.
I mean, should someone be arrested on felony charges for forgetting (or not knowing) to fill out a form?
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Uncle Billy
New member
The "Firearm Owner's Protection Act", a federal law passed in 1986 (wikipedia entry available here)...
"Firearm Owners Protection Act"
... in part says this:
"'Safe passage' provision
One of the law's provisions was that persons traveling from one place to another for a shooting sports event or any other lawful activity cannot be arrested for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas) and the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, in a locked container.
An example of this would be that someone driving from Virginia to a competition in Vermont with a locked hard case containing an unloaded handgun and a box of ammunition in the trunk could not be prosecuted in New Jersey or New York City for illegal possession of a handgun provided that they did not stop in New Jersey or New York for an extended period of time."
If the guy from Florida had his handguns unloaded and in a locked box in the trunk, he might not have been in trouble in New York even though the Canadians turned him around for having them in ANY circumstance. But maybe not- the 1986 law's "safe passage" conditions aren't really met- it wouldn't have been legal for him to have been in possession of the handguns in Canada which apparently was the end point of his trip, and the 1986 law provides the "safe passage" provision only if the traveller can legally possess the guns at each end of his trip and he couldn't legally possess them in Canada.
When they put his license plate into their data system (routinely done on any vehicle entering Canada) and what came back didn't match the car (he was charged in NY with a license plate violation), they surely sent him for a secondary customs inspection, which is probably where they found the guns. When they put his name into their data system they probably found out about his other conviction (one local news outlet said it was for assault), which would have turned him around at their border anyway; when he returned to the US and the US Homeland Security folks ran his name and saw the guns, they called the local authorities because they knew he was in violation of NYS law with the weapons and with the license plate.
My guess is that the handguns were loaded and under the seat (or someplace similar), where Canadian customs found them in the secondary inspection and sent him back without any delay. When he arrived at US customs (nobody gets into the US from outside it without being approved by Homeland Security which can't be avoided here because the US-Canada link is a bridge with iron guardrails and every inch under TV and infrared surveillance), his real troubles began. His conviction for assault (if the local news is correct) raised the level of criminal possession of a firearm from a misdemeanor to a felony, and his whole situation went down the toilet.
The point of all of this is this: One can get away with a LOT that's illegal if they keep their head down (so to speak) and go quietly, attracting no attention. But not at the border. When you try to enter the US- no matter who you are or what your citizenship or what the circumstances are that have you present yourself at the border seeking entry to the US- apparently you aren't protected by "just cause" provisions, and Homeland Security has access to every place your name appears or has ever appeared. The odds of pulling something off, of getting away with something even a little off is very small. It's prudent to get ALL your ducks in a row before you expose yourself to Homeland Security because they are SERIOUS and have no sense of humor or inclination to wink at infractions. AirForceShooter had it right- "learn the rules if you're doing stuff".
"Firearm Owners Protection Act"
... in part says this:
"'Safe passage' provision
One of the law's provisions was that persons traveling from one place to another for a shooting sports event or any other lawful activity cannot be arrested for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas) and the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, in a locked container.
An example of this would be that someone driving from Virginia to a competition in Vermont with a locked hard case containing an unloaded handgun and a box of ammunition in the trunk could not be prosecuted in New Jersey or New York City for illegal possession of a handgun provided that they did not stop in New Jersey or New York for an extended period of time."
If the guy from Florida had his handguns unloaded and in a locked box in the trunk, he might not have been in trouble in New York even though the Canadians turned him around for having them in ANY circumstance. But maybe not- the 1986 law's "safe passage" conditions aren't really met- it wouldn't have been legal for him to have been in possession of the handguns in Canada which apparently was the end point of his trip, and the 1986 law provides the "safe passage" provision only if the traveller can legally possess the guns at each end of his trip and he couldn't legally possess them in Canada.
When they put his license plate into their data system (routinely done on any vehicle entering Canada) and what came back didn't match the car (he was charged in NY with a license plate violation), they surely sent him for a secondary customs inspection, which is probably where they found the guns. When they put his name into their data system they probably found out about his other conviction (one local news outlet said it was for assault), which would have turned him around at their border anyway; when he returned to the US and the US Homeland Security folks ran his name and saw the guns, they called the local authorities because they knew he was in violation of NYS law with the weapons and with the license plate.
My guess is that the handguns were loaded and under the seat (or someplace similar), where Canadian customs found them in the secondary inspection and sent him back without any delay. When he arrived at US customs (nobody gets into the US from outside it without being approved by Homeland Security which can't be avoided here because the US-Canada link is a bridge with iron guardrails and every inch under TV and infrared surveillance), his real troubles began. His conviction for assault (if the local news is correct) raised the level of criminal possession of a firearm from a misdemeanor to a felony, and his whole situation went down the toilet.
The point of all of this is this: One can get away with a LOT that's illegal if they keep their head down (so to speak) and go quietly, attracting no attention. But not at the border. When you try to enter the US- no matter who you are or what your citizenship or what the circumstances are that have you present yourself at the border seeking entry to the US- apparently you aren't protected by "just cause" provisions, and Homeland Security has access to every place your name appears or has ever appeared. The odds of pulling something off, of getting away with something even a little off is very small. It's prudent to get ALL your ducks in a row before you expose yourself to Homeland Security because they are SERIOUS and have no sense of humor or inclination to wink at infractions. AirForceShooter had it right- "learn the rules if you're doing stuff".
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Bayou Rifle
New member
In addition to all the other points raised above, from the U.S. side, the traveler would have needed an export license from the U.S. State Department, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. Firearms, except for shotguns with a barrel greater than 18 inches, are Category I on the U.S. Munitions List and are defense articles requiring a license to export from the U.S. to any country. When leaving the U.S., you are exporting what ever you take with you. Leaving the U.S. with a firearm is an export and requires a license.
He's lucky that Customs didn't refer him to State for a possible civil or criminal penalty. The civil penalty can go up to $500,000 and the criminal penalty can go to 20 years.
He's lucky that Customs didn't refer him to State for a possible civil or criminal penalty. The civil penalty can go up to $500,000 and the criminal penalty can go to 20 years.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I am reasonably certain that the export restriction does NOT apply to sporting firearms exported to Canada for sporting purposes when the firearm is not changing ownership:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6626432/Firearms-General-Inforrmation-Federal
(See page 6)
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6626432/Firearms-General-Inforrmation-Federal
(See page 6)
Uncle Billy
New member
The export provisions probably do apply to guns, but only those that will be left outside the US- sold, transferred, traded or whatever- and not brought back to the US. I believe the rules for "export" and "import" are much more stringent in the context of taking stuff across a border on a one-way trip. Sporting and target guns brought into Canada for one's use, then taken out of Canada after one bags his moose or bear or whatever aren't permanently "imported", they are in Canada temporarily and therein lies the difference. I also think there's a difference in the way some issues are handled between our border with Canada and our border with Mexico because there are differences (I suspect) between our trade relations with those nations which depends on their internal laws.
Here's the link I posted in my original post on this issue:
Royal Canadian Mounted Police: "Firearm Users Visiting Canada"
It leads to a website maintained by the Canadian federal police and relates all the rules that apply to bringing guns into Canada, for one's use and to leave there.
Here's the link I posted in my original post on this issue:
Royal Canadian Mounted Police: "Firearm Users Visiting Canada"
It leads to a website maintained by the Canadian federal police and relates all the rules that apply to bringing guns into Canada, for one's use and to leave there.
Bayou Rifle
New member
Nope, its an export even if it just leaves the U.S. for a minute. The Canadian requirements have to do with their import policies, not the U.S. export regulations.
The Commerce Dept. and State Department regulations even cover movement through one country on the way to another. And sending parts for firearms requires a license as well. These are defined as "defense articles" under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR"). Any movement out of the U.S. is an export, either a permanent export or a temporary export and if it is a defense article it requires a license from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls which requires that you be registered first with the DDTC. A shotgun with a barrel over 18" is specifically exempted. Nigh vision and "military" rifle scopes are regulated as well. Cabelas paid a $680,000 fine for exporting those without a license.
http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/425
The Commerce Dept. and State Department regulations even cover movement through one country on the way to another. And sending parts for firearms requires a license as well. These are defined as "defense articles" under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR"). Any movement out of the U.S. is an export, either a permanent export or a temporary export and if it is a defense article it requires a license from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls which requires that you be registered first with the DDTC. A shotgun with a barrel over 18" is specifically exempted. Nigh vision and "military" rifle scopes are regulated as well. Cabelas paid a $680,000 fine for exporting those without a license.
http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/425
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Cabelas was exporting guns for purpose of selling them. The article I cited, from the Department of Commerce, specifically says that firearms taken to Canada are exempt.
Direct Quote:
"Under the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, an export license must be obtained from ODTC before exporting a rifle or a handgun anywhere other than to Canada."
Direct Quote:
"Under the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, an export license must be obtained from ODTC before exporting a rifle or a handgun anywhere other than to Canada."
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Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Yep, and from page 8 of your linked PDF:
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS:
"123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -
U.S. persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms
and not more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided that this is for the
person's exclusive use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e.,firearms for use on hunting trips)."
A. LICENSING EXEMPTIONS:
"123. 17(c) Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use -
U.S. persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms
and not more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided that this is for the
person's exclusive use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e.,firearms for use on hunting trips)."
Uncle Billy
New member
PeetzaKiller beat me to it! But here it is anyway:
The exportation of shotguns from the US is handled by regulations of the US Department of Commerce; the exportation of rifles and handguns by the Department of State. Nonetheless, the regs are very similar.
From US Department of Commerce Export Administration Regulations, Part 740: License Exceptions, Section 740.14 (page 33 of the Regulation): "Baggage"
Shotguns and shotgun shells: No export or reexport license is required for shotguns, provided that:
1) No more than 3 be taken on one trip.
2) Their barrel length is 18" or greater
3) They leave the US with the person's baggage, accompanied or not
4) The shotguns are for the person's exclusive use and not for resale or other transfer of ownership
5) All shotguns and unused shells must be returned to the US
Before leaving the US, the traveller ought to stop at US customs and obtain documentation of the guns and ammo he's taking out of the country so that reentry with them has some official paperwork for support.
From the US Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls, Part 121.1 Category I "The US Munitions List, Firearms, Close Assault Weapons and Combat Shotguns" and Part 123.17c "Licenses for the Export of Defense Articles, Exports of Firearms and Ammunition"
A US citizen may temporarily export and reexport, without a license, up to 3 non-automatic firearms as defined in Category I(a) of 121.1 and no more than 1000 cartridges (this quantity also applies to shotguns) therefore, without a license, provided that:
1) A declaration is made to a customs officer and an examination is made as the person leaves the US.
2) The guns and ammo are with the person's baggage whether accompanied or not.
3) The guns and ammo are for the exclusive use of the person and not for resale or other transfer of ownership.
Category I(a) of 121.1 defines "firearms" (as applies to hunters and/or target shooters, the only way to bring a gun into Canada) as a non-automatic and semi automatic firearm to caliber .50 inclusive, which is:
a) a rifle not over .50 cal which is rifled and has a barrel length of 16" or longer
b) a carbine (lightweight shoulder firearm with a barrel less than 16" long
c) A pistol, which is a hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with or permanently aligned with the bore
d) A revolver, which has a revolving cylinder containing chambers for individual cartridges.
These articles contain references to other weapons, but none of them are legal for hunters or target shooters to possess for reasons of ATF regulations in the US.
In summary: A US citizen can take 3 rifles and 3 shotguns and 1000 rounds out of the country and return with them without a US export license, as long as they are for his use exclusively and they aren't sold or otherwise transferred. This includes the ammo. He has to stop at US customs on the way out for inspection of them.
These are only the US regulations for exporting to and returning from Canada with guns. The Canadian laws are just as detailed and must be followed too.
The exportation of shotguns from the US is handled by regulations of the US Department of Commerce; the exportation of rifles and handguns by the Department of State. Nonetheless, the regs are very similar.
From US Department of Commerce Export Administration Regulations, Part 740: License Exceptions, Section 740.14 (page 33 of the Regulation): "Baggage"
Shotguns and shotgun shells: No export or reexport license is required for shotguns, provided that:
1) No more than 3 be taken on one trip.
2) Their barrel length is 18" or greater
3) They leave the US with the person's baggage, accompanied or not
4) The shotguns are for the person's exclusive use and not for resale or other transfer of ownership
5) All shotguns and unused shells must be returned to the US
Before leaving the US, the traveller ought to stop at US customs and obtain documentation of the guns and ammo he's taking out of the country so that reentry with them has some official paperwork for support.
From the US Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls, Part 121.1 Category I "The US Munitions List, Firearms, Close Assault Weapons and Combat Shotguns" and Part 123.17c "Licenses for the Export of Defense Articles, Exports of Firearms and Ammunition"
A US citizen may temporarily export and reexport, without a license, up to 3 non-automatic firearms as defined in Category I(a) of 121.1 and no more than 1000 cartridges (this quantity also applies to shotguns) therefore, without a license, provided that:
1) A declaration is made to a customs officer and an examination is made as the person leaves the US.
2) The guns and ammo are with the person's baggage whether accompanied or not.
3) The guns and ammo are for the exclusive use of the person and not for resale or other transfer of ownership.
Category I(a) of 121.1 defines "firearms" (as applies to hunters and/or target shooters, the only way to bring a gun into Canada) as a non-automatic and semi automatic firearm to caliber .50 inclusive, which is:
a) a rifle not over .50 cal which is rifled and has a barrel length of 16" or longer
b) a carbine (lightweight shoulder firearm with a barrel less than 16" long
c) A pistol, which is a hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with or permanently aligned with the bore
d) A revolver, which has a revolving cylinder containing chambers for individual cartridges.
These articles contain references to other weapons, but none of them are legal for hunters or target shooters to possess for reasons of ATF regulations in the US.
In summary: A US citizen can take 3 rifles and 3 shotguns and 1000 rounds out of the country and return with them without a US export license, as long as they are for his use exclusively and they aren't sold or otherwise transferred. This includes the ammo. He has to stop at US customs on the way out for inspection of them.
These are only the US regulations for exporting to and returning from Canada with guns. The Canadian laws are just as detailed and must be followed too.
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