Glock pistols will fire out of battery. KaBoom!?
- Thread starter Handy
- Start date
I didn't understand the part of the test where a case is chambered and *then* the slide was partly retracted. As much as I try, none of my Glocks will fire as I try to while easing the slide forward into battery like it would during actual firing. I do seem to find some vague area where the gun will fire if I chamber a case first and then ease the slide back.
As for the former, I have had several reloads over the years that failed to chamber completely, even where it was hard to tell visually, and the guns (Glocks) would not fire.
Somehow, the "test" does not seem to simulate real world conditions. However, I defer to experts.
As for the former, I have had several reloads over the years that failed to chamber completely, even where it was hard to tell visually, and the guns (Glocks) would not fire.
Somehow, the "test" does not seem to simulate real world conditions. However, I defer to experts.
I'm not interested to prove a point... (I already KNOW I will not buy a Glock)
so, now you speak for everyone?
there are quite a few Glock owners who've posted interesting things here...
AND it has made me feel the need to test my new Beretta, and see if it'll fire that way, since I plan to use it as a personal defense piece, and wanna know EXACTLY what might happen if it CAN fore out of battery, with, say, a dirty chamber...
this post is rather thought provoking, and hey... the guy who made the post OWNS a Glock... so he's not Gaston-unfriendly... he's just learning and sharing...
so, now you speak for everyone?
there are quite a few Glock owners who've posted interesting things here...
AND it has made me feel the need to test my new Beretta, and see if it'll fire that way, since I plan to use it as a personal defense piece, and wanna know EXACTLY what might happen if it CAN fore out of battery, with, say, a dirty chamber...
this post is rather thought provoking, and hey... the guy who made the post OWNS a Glock... so he's not Gaston-unfriendly... he's just learning and sharing...
Mo_Zam_Beek
New member
While your looking for that would you care for me to post the adresses for the hundreds of academies, shooting schools, departments, and individuals who after millions of factory rounds, have had little to no problems.
Hmmm - this is a similiar thought pattern by Corp bean counters and attorneys - you sure your not a major stock holder - cuz this is the same rationale that I mentioned above.
Show me the statistics compared to other handguns that indicates Glock 40's are KB'ing due to Handy's theory.
Most of us go with research, not speculation, when we chose to react to something.
leed - you and I (and Glock) know that this can not be done. An unbiased clearing house of information relating to this subject does not exist.
Thus we get back to the crux of the problem -
those that raise questions are met by ardent supports followed by those that dont question.
These KBs are reported on the web (and promptly discredited by those like yourself) at the local shop (who deny responsibility and do not broadcast any problems b/c they fear losing sales) and to the manufacturer (who ain't gonna say squat).
In short - by design you and those like you hold the high ground here because that information is not available from an unbiased source.
Hmmm - this is a similiar thought pattern by Corp bean counters and attorneys - you sure your not a major stock holder - cuz this is the same rationale that I mentioned above.
Show me the statistics compared to other handguns that indicates Glock 40's are KB'ing due to Handy's theory.
Most of us go with research, not speculation, when we chose to react to something.
leed - you and I (and Glock) know that this can not be done. An unbiased clearing house of information relating to this subject does not exist.
Thus we get back to the crux of the problem -
those that raise questions are met by ardent supports followed by those that dont question.
These KBs are reported on the web (and promptly discredited by those like yourself) at the local shop (who deny responsibility and do not broadcast any problems b/c they fear losing sales) and to the manufacturer (who ain't gonna say squat).
In short - by design you and those like you hold the high ground here because that information is not available from an unbiased source.
Then why are you harping on a dead issue? For a guy that don't own a Glock and have little or no experience in the firearm you sure know a lot about Glock.
God forbid that other firearms can go KB!. It might shatter their world and bring them back to reality. All guns can go KB!, that is not my opinions that is a fact.
I took a couple of Glocks, a couple of 1911's, and an assortment of other pistols, both old and new, out of the safe. Almost every one of them will drop the hammer (or striker) slightly out of battery, and the Glocks didn't exhibit the propensity to fire more out of battery than any other brand or type. In point of fact, three 1911 pattern pistols, the Kimber, the Springfield, and an Argentine Sistema 1927, all drop the hammer more out of battery than either the Glock 17 or the Glock 21 that I have. This is only a small sample, but I personally see no credence in this reported defect.
Why in the world do the "Glock-Busters" never, ever, ever...consider one single over-riding point:
Lots of gun sold...more accidents/issues
Few guns sold...fewer accidents/issues (unless a major design flaw exists)
Good grief, the number one selling market leader is going to have more customers, thus more "issues" regardless of the quality control. It's a function of odds.
Every single "Glock-Buster" fails to consider this, they would rather single out the individual Kb, quantify it with no proof what-so-ever, then rant on that the gun is dangerous.
Take ANY gun manufacture out there today...place an identical number of their guns in the hands of customers (use the same number's Glock has sold)...guess what, we'd hear the same people spouting their voo-doo but the brand would be different.
And I bet (now here's my voo-doo) their would be more issues to discuss.
My .02
VF
Lots of gun sold...more accidents/issues
Few guns sold...fewer accidents/issues (unless a major design flaw exists)
Good grief, the number one selling market leader is going to have more customers, thus more "issues" regardless of the quality control. It's a function of odds.
Every single "Glock-Buster" fails to consider this, they would rather single out the individual Kb, quantify it with no proof what-so-ever, then rant on that the gun is dangerous.
Take ANY gun manufacture out there today...place an identical number of their guns in the hands of customers (use the same number's Glock has sold)...guess what, we'd hear the same people spouting their voo-doo but the brand would be different.
And I bet (now here's my voo-doo) their would be more issues to discuss.
My .02
VF
To Handy:
Hi, just got back to the forum and want to elaborate.
On 1911 style "pivoting link" type lockup you are fairly close to correct. Locking lug engagement is only approx .03 or so on several lugs. This is off the top of my head, but close. The breech exposure to the base of the brass is nearly circular for all the time it is in battery because all the upswing into the lugs occurs in the final movement before the slide is totally forward. With the Glock design the "lug" engagement in battery is closer to .10 - .12 and the breech exposure to the brass while in battery is an ellipse approx. .10 greater in vertical than the diameter of the case. The pivot point on a 1911 is only a little ahead of the end of the chamber whereas on the glock the pivot point is closer to the front barrel bushing. Fired while slide is not fully forward is more likely to result in a hit higher than point of aim unless extreme conditions are present. Case head slides up the breechface as chamber aligns with striker at full lockup. When you allow the slide to go fully forward before withdrawing slide to try "out of battery" you have fully chambered and aligned the case to breechface and is held by extractor. If you get the striker to drop before the slide has gone fully forward the striker will hit the primer off center to the amount that the barrel is not fully into its .10 of lockup. I do not know how far off center a primer hit will detonate the primer, but looking at the anvil construction I would guess anything greater than .05 off center would probably not pop. This still allows approx .05 of locking lug engagement or nearly twice that on swinging link types and unlocking would not begin until the slide passed the normal disengagement point relative to the frame. I think the numbers I am giving you here are GROSSLY weighted in favor of your argument.
My research indicates Glock KBs seem to be a function of unsupported chamber, which is present at full lockup with the factory barrel, pressure spikes caused by bullet setback and possibly "prefatigued" (both for bullet retention and the half moon unsupported at the web) brass from previous firings. Auto cartridges like .45 operate at half the working pressure of .40 S & W. A .010 setback in a 30K+ pressured .40 supposedly can cause 5k to 10k pressure spikes. I only add this to show why a KB does not help prove your claims.
I offer this not so much as a challenge to your assertions, but more of a critical revue of your premises.
Hi, just got back to the forum and want to elaborate.
On 1911 style "pivoting link" type lockup you are fairly close to correct. Locking lug engagement is only approx .03 or so on several lugs. This is off the top of my head, but close. The breech exposure to the base of the brass is nearly circular for all the time it is in battery because all the upswing into the lugs occurs in the final movement before the slide is totally forward. With the Glock design the "lug" engagement in battery is closer to .10 - .12 and the breech exposure to the brass while in battery is an ellipse approx. .10 greater in vertical than the diameter of the case. The pivot point on a 1911 is only a little ahead of the end of the chamber whereas on the glock the pivot point is closer to the front barrel bushing. Fired while slide is not fully forward is more likely to result in a hit higher than point of aim unless extreme conditions are present. Case head slides up the breechface as chamber aligns with striker at full lockup. When you allow the slide to go fully forward before withdrawing slide to try "out of battery" you have fully chambered and aligned the case to breechface and is held by extractor. If you get the striker to drop before the slide has gone fully forward the striker will hit the primer off center to the amount that the barrel is not fully into its .10 of lockup. I do not know how far off center a primer hit will detonate the primer, but looking at the anvil construction I would guess anything greater than .05 off center would probably not pop. This still allows approx .05 of locking lug engagement or nearly twice that on swinging link types and unlocking would not begin until the slide passed the normal disengagement point relative to the frame. I think the numbers I am giving you here are GROSSLY weighted in favor of your argument.
My research indicates Glock KBs seem to be a function of unsupported chamber, which is present at full lockup with the factory barrel, pressure spikes caused by bullet setback and possibly "prefatigued" (both for bullet retention and the half moon unsupported at the web) brass from previous firings. Auto cartridges like .45 operate at half the working pressure of .40 S & W. A .010 setback in a 30K+ pressured .40 supposedly can cause 5k to 10k pressure spikes. I only add this to show why a KB does not help prove your claims.
I offer this not so much as a challenge to your assertions, but more of a critical revue of your premises.
Brian Williams
New member
Dead Horse
Why beat it more
Why beat it more
Mo_Zam_Beek, I believe that you might have misunderstood me. I meant that spent primers will back out of the pocket because the back thrust caused by powder ignition is not there.
Handy, as I said before, a Glock in good working order will not fire out of battery. I just tried to make mine fire out of battery--it will not. Therefore, I believe that your gun MIGHT be in need of repair. I strongly urge you to take it to a competent gunsmith for a look-over before firing again.
As far as Glocks going kB, it does happen to other guns, you know. When the IPSC crowd started loading .38 Super, they hotrodded it past any reasonable pressure level. Result? A lot of blown up guns.
Same thing happened when the 9x21 and 9x23 came out.
By the way, if you don't care for Glocks, that's your choice, and more power to you. Buy and use a Beretta, Colt, Springfield Armory, or any other fine handgun that you can use well. But, please--try not to belittle those of us who do use them. Each to his or her own, and good shooting to you.
Handy, as I said before, a Glock in good working order will not fire out of battery. I just tried to make mine fire out of battery--it will not. Therefore, I believe that your gun MIGHT be in need of repair. I strongly urge you to take it to a competent gunsmith for a look-over before firing again.
As far as Glocks going kB, it does happen to other guns, you know. When the IPSC crowd started loading .38 Super, they hotrodded it past any reasonable pressure level. Result? A lot of blown up guns.
Same thing happened when the 9x21 and 9x23 came out.
By the way, if you don't care for Glocks, that's your choice, and more power to you. Buy and use a Beretta, Colt, Springfield Armory, or any other fine handgun that you can use well. But, please--try not to belittle those of us who do use them. Each to his or her own, and good shooting to you.
To answer several thoughtful comments:
The Glock connector engages as the slide closes. I tried it again starting with a pulled trigger and slide back. As I reached 1/8" from full battery I pulled the trigger. The striker fell.
Cal4D4,
Your observations are excellent and I mostly agree. However, the barrel/breechface/slide relationship is fixed and remains the same whether the breech is opening or closing. In other words, for a given slide position the barrel will always be in the same relative position, no matter which half of the cycle.
Your point about lock up is well taken, but I'm already in agreement with you. The action may be locked, but not for a long enough duration. The first bit of travel in a recoil gun, where the barrel and slide are locked together, is a delay. That initial movement rearward gives the chamber pressure time to drop. If you start the ignition closer to the unlock point, the pressure would still be too high at the time of unlocking. That is what I'm postulating would cause the case head to fail.
Would anyone here fire a Glock with real ammo slightly out of battery?
The real question is whether this is likely to happen or not with real bullets during firing. That's completely legitimate. I offer this; the ratio of exposed bullet width to length for Glock chamberings:
9mm is 1.17
.45 is .83
.40 and 10mm is .71
Those ratios dictate the steepness of the ogive. For those that actually believe Kabooms happen, you'll notice 9mm is at one end and .40 at the other. Reported failures run about the same way. Zero on the 9mm end, the most on the .40 side.
The 1911 has been with us 91 years. The Luger about as long. Hi-Power and Tokarev since the '30s. Smith 39 came along in the fifties and most everything else popped up in the '70's. Has anyone here ever heard the term KaBoom or heard common discussion of something like it before the introduction of the .40 Glock?
The Glock connector engages as the slide closes. I tried it again starting with a pulled trigger and slide back. As I reached 1/8" from full battery I pulled the trigger. The striker fell.
Cal4D4,
Your observations are excellent and I mostly agree. However, the barrel/breechface/slide relationship is fixed and remains the same whether the breech is opening or closing. In other words, for a given slide position the barrel will always be in the same relative position, no matter which half of the cycle.
Your point about lock up is well taken, but I'm already in agreement with you. The action may be locked, but not for a long enough duration. The first bit of travel in a recoil gun, where the barrel and slide are locked together, is a delay. That initial movement rearward gives the chamber pressure time to drop. If you start the ignition closer to the unlock point, the pressure would still be too high at the time of unlocking. That is what I'm postulating would cause the case head to fail.
Would anyone here fire a Glock with real ammo slightly out of battery?
The real question is whether this is likely to happen or not with real bullets during firing. That's completely legitimate. I offer this; the ratio of exposed bullet width to length for Glock chamberings:
9mm is 1.17
.45 is .83
.40 and 10mm is .71
Those ratios dictate the steepness of the ogive. For those that actually believe Kabooms happen, you'll notice 9mm is at one end and .40 at the other. Reported failures run about the same way. Zero on the 9mm end, the most on the .40 side.
The 1911 has been with us 91 years. The Luger about as long. Hi-Power and Tokarev since the '30s. Smith 39 came along in the fifties and most everything else popped up in the '70's. Has anyone here ever heard the term KaBoom or heard common discussion of something like it before the introduction of the .40 Glock?
Powerderman,
I didn't attempt to belittle anyone who spoke respectfully to me. I don't understand the animosity asking a question can cause.
I have not one, but three "broken" Glocks available. All will drop the striker just out of battery.
In respect to primers backing out, if the headspace is correct, there should be nowhere for the primers to go. The case head should be firmly against the breechface, locking the primer in place.
I do care for Glocks.
I didn't attempt to belittle anyone who spoke respectfully to me. I don't understand the animosity asking a question can cause.
I have not one, but three "broken" Glocks available. All will drop the striker just out of battery.
In respect to primers backing out, if the headspace is correct, there should be nowhere for the primers to go. The case head should be firmly against the breechface, locking the primer in place.
I do care for Glocks.
Wow! Someone dared to challange the "Church of Glock" and survived!?!?!
Someone dared to cast a shadow on "Pope Gaston" and the earth didn't open up and swallow him!?!?!
May the dark plastic ghouls from H**L eternally eat your soul!!!
Some of you folks need to get a grip. Just because someone says something on a forum like this doesn't make it true. I know, I own 1911's and have received some comments on this forum about them. I don't take them personally; if you don't like them, don't buy 'em.
I started reading this thread to see if there was any good information. I finished reading it, at times amused by the feathers being ruffled.
If you own a Glock, shoot it, depend on it for your protection, good for you! You own a pistol that many, many others have chosen to purchase. An awful lot of you seem awful happy with them!
I just recently had a case failure with my favorite 1911, a Kimber Stainless Gold Match. It didn't stop me from shooting it, it doesn't make me want to go out and convince others not to shoot them, I don't think that I have to "prove" there is a problem with 1911's. I think I just had a case failure, either due to the bullet pushing back into the case or overloading it.
What's the old saying? Live and let live?
FWIW.
Casey
Someone dared to cast a shadow on "Pope Gaston" and the earth didn't open up and swallow him!?!?!
May the dark plastic ghouls from H**L eternally eat your soul!!!
Some of you folks need to get a grip. Just because someone says something on a forum like this doesn't make it true. I know, I own 1911's and have received some comments on this forum about them. I don't take them personally; if you don't like them, don't buy 'em.
I started reading this thread to see if there was any good information. I finished reading it, at times amused by the feathers being ruffled.
If you own a Glock, shoot it, depend on it for your protection, good for you! You own a pistol that many, many others have chosen to purchase. An awful lot of you seem awful happy with them!
I just recently had a case failure with my favorite 1911, a Kimber Stainless Gold Match. It didn't stop me from shooting it, it doesn't make me want to go out and convince others not to shoot them, I don't think that I have to "prove" there is a problem with 1911's. I think I just had a case failure, either due to the bullet pushing back into the case or overloading it.
What's the old saying? Live and let live?
FWIW.
Casey
"To answer several thoughtful comments:
The Glock connector engages as the slide closes. I tried it again starting with a pulled trigger and slide back. As I reached 1/8" from full battery I pulled the trigger. The striker fell."
OK, you made me dig 4 Glocks out of the safe. A 2nd gen. 22, a 3rd gen 17, a 34, and a 21. I had previously checked the 22 by easing the slide forward and trying to simulate firing. It wouldn't do it. I tried the other 3 and they wouldn't do it either. In fact, none of the 4 would do it within 1/32" let alone an 1/8".
I tried and tried and tried again and they will just not do it.
The Glock connector engages as the slide closes. I tried it again starting with a pulled trigger and slide back. As I reached 1/8" from full battery I pulled the trigger. The striker fell."
OK, you made me dig 4 Glocks out of the safe. A 2nd gen. 22, a 3rd gen 17, a 34, and a 21. I had previously checked the 22 by easing the slide forward and trying to simulate firing. It wouldn't do it. I tried the other 3 and they wouldn't do it either. In fact, none of the 4 would do it within 1/32" let alone an 1/8".
I tried and tried and tried again and they will just not do it.
OK
To continue beating the opossums outa this dead horse:
The relationship of the bbl/breech/striker and primer are not the same coming and going. Before battery the elements will be at one end of design tolerances and stackups, after battery and withdrawl, they will be riding on the other extreme of tolerances. Remember here we are picking flysh*t out of the pepper and .005 - .015 are probably significant. Also after battery we have the tolerances of whatever surfaces cam the barrel out of battery to deal with, too.
I am deeply aware of the lockup/pressure drop relationship. SOME pressure exists when final ejection occurs. My premise would be that thruout the POSSIBLE ignition thru ejection cycle and that would include very slightly premature ignition the design, and that includes the brass, would safely contain any latent pressure. KBs that I am aware of seem to happen at the unsupported web without any "ringing" of the rest of the case as would probably happen with compromised lockup time. I feel this is where your assertion would show up.
If I understand your "ratio and ogive" assertions correctly, this is just as likely to show increased "bullet setback" influences as anything. I believe bullet setback and the pressures it causes is a/the main culprit.
The delayed pressure spike of high pressure/slow powder loads have to be within the same lockup cycle as high pressure fast powder loads and the design parameters seem to handle them both.
Nice discussion when we don't get too dogmatic or jingoistic about our toys. Gotta go, my 17 year old has a soccer match and I am late!
To continue beating the opossums outa this dead horse:
The relationship of the bbl/breech/striker and primer are not the same coming and going. Before battery the elements will be at one end of design tolerances and stackups, after battery and withdrawl, they will be riding on the other extreme of tolerances. Remember here we are picking flysh*t out of the pepper and .005 - .015 are probably significant. Also after battery we have the tolerances of whatever surfaces cam the barrel out of battery to deal with, too.
I am deeply aware of the lockup/pressure drop relationship. SOME pressure exists when final ejection occurs. My premise would be that thruout the POSSIBLE ignition thru ejection cycle and that would include very slightly premature ignition the design, and that includes the brass, would safely contain any latent pressure. KBs that I am aware of seem to happen at the unsupported web without any "ringing" of the rest of the case as would probably happen with compromised lockup time. I feel this is where your assertion would show up.
If I understand your "ratio and ogive" assertions correctly, this is just as likely to show increased "bullet setback" influences as anything. I believe bullet setback and the pressures it causes is a/the main culprit.
The delayed pressure spike of high pressure/slow powder loads have to be within the same lockup cycle as high pressure fast powder loads and the design parameters seem to handle them both.
Nice discussion when we don't get too dogmatic or jingoistic about our toys. Gotta go, my 17 year old has a soccer match and I am late!
GLOCK
I'm not here to bash Glocks,my stance is that glocks have been known to have problems,but I've never heard of any with an H&K.That's my personal choice.
You guys may have seen this aready,but if not it's worth the minute or two that it takes to load.
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=5241&forum=14&29
PS If anyone has links or stories about H&K guns with problems,I'd like tp hear about them or read them.
SxS
[Fixed link address - Mal H]
I'm not here to bash Glocks,my stance is that glocks have been known to have problems,but I've never heard of any with an H&K.That's my personal choice.
You guys may have seen this aready,but if not it's worth the minute or two that it takes to load.
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=5241&forum=14&29
PS If anyone has links or stories about H&K guns with problems,I'd like tp hear about them or read them.
SxS
[Fixed link address - Mal H]
Last edited by a moderator:
Yep
That's a kaboom alright. One similar one brought the comment from someone claiming pressures had to go up around 80K to get those chamber splitting results. Does anyone know if SAAMI has a setback resistance standard? I suspect that Handy's comments about diameter/ratio/ogive and my comments on their influence on setback forces may point out a weakness in Gaston's design choices. The feed angle and the pressures created against the bullet nose could cause the setback and the pressures needed to crack that chamber in half. The unsupported brass was certainly involved and there does not seem to be any ringing forward of the web. The primer probably hit the slide hard enough to carry it back.
All things said, my 10mm has a fully supported chamber, hotter loads in fresh brass only, a 22# spring to delay the unlock time and most of all I crimp separately and make sure I can't push my bullets into the case even with approx. 40# of force. I also use slowish powders at less than max limits. Faster powders can be "spikey" if case volume is reduced. My copper plated cast 180's probably ride up the ramp with less stick than straight lead. Think I'll go polish my feed ramp! Someone said the 10mm has a better feed angle than the shorter .40.
A TFL'er named Clark has alot of experience with failure pressures and how to get there. Maybe he will kick in? Custom loader WESHOOT2 treads the line in tailored max loads for the common man, maybe he can input on how we keep from having one of these happen in our hand?
P.S. My kid's soccer team beat the other 5-0! Two "red cards" and 3-4 "yellow cards" between the teams.
That's a kaboom alright. One similar one brought the comment from someone claiming pressures had to go up around 80K to get those chamber splitting results. Does anyone know if SAAMI has a setback resistance standard? I suspect that Handy's comments about diameter/ratio/ogive and my comments on their influence on setback forces may point out a weakness in Gaston's design choices. The feed angle and the pressures created against the bullet nose could cause the setback and the pressures needed to crack that chamber in half. The unsupported brass was certainly involved and there does not seem to be any ringing forward of the web. The primer probably hit the slide hard enough to carry it back.
All things said, my 10mm has a fully supported chamber, hotter loads in fresh brass only, a 22# spring to delay the unlock time and most of all I crimp separately and make sure I can't push my bullets into the case even with approx. 40# of force. I also use slowish powders at less than max limits. Faster powders can be "spikey" if case volume is reduced. My copper plated cast 180's probably ride up the ramp with less stick than straight lead. Think I'll go polish my feed ramp! Someone said the 10mm has a better feed angle than the shorter .40.
A TFL'er named Clark has alot of experience with failure pressures and how to get there. Maybe he will kick in? Custom loader WESHOOT2 treads the line in tailored max loads for the common man, maybe he can input on how we keep from having one of these happen in our hand?
P.S. My kid's soccer team beat the other 5-0! Two "red cards" and 3-4 "yellow cards" between the teams.