Glock pistols will fire out of battery. KaBoom!?

H

Handy

Moderator
After going to the trouble to prove it in this thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97038&pagenumber=2

I thought the topic might be of general interest. I'm no Glock hater; daily my family relies on a G19. I am a bit a .40 distruster and do believe that Glock 22, 23 and 27s do tend to occasionally blowup (have catastrophic case head failures) and the 17, 19 and 26 have no tendency to do this at all.

To sum up what's been said in the other string: It is my belief that the poor feed characteristics of .40, coupled with the ability to fire slightly out of battery, are the primary cause of KaBooms with factory and reloaded ammo. This isn't to say that other factors, like bulged reloaded cases, aren't also major contributors.

To show that the Glock will fire out of battery I put an empty case with primer in a 19 and pulled the trigger with the slide held 1/8" back. The primer ignited and the primer and case displayed signs of excessive head space. Two other Glocks worked similarly.

Please read the details in the other string before posting your criticisms.
 
No criticism, just observations here. I have heard this many times over the years, yet every time I try to make it fire out of battery, it(all my Glocks) won't. Here is what I do: use a reload with everything except the power. It is simple enough to beat a squib out if it ever goes off. OAL is correct to standard 9mm's, 40 S&W's, and .45acp's. Put a few in a mag, crank the slide to load, and try to pull the trigger out of battery. So far, and I have tried this in the following models; G21, G30, G22, G23, G34, G17, G19, G26, with both factory and various aftermarket barrels, I have not had the weapon fire out of battery. I believe the all 3 of these calibers headspace on the mouth by the crimp.
 
Virtually every handgun design, including most revolvers, can "fire out of battery."

Normally, though, this condition is so close to being in battery that the difference really isn't important.

Generally, the older and more used a gun, the greater the chance of it firing out of battery.
 
To show that the Glock will fire out of battery I put an empty case with primer in a 19 and pulled the trigger with the slide held 1/8" back. The primer ignited and the primer and case displayed signs of excessive head space. T
Click to expand...

Ok..you lost me there. What signs of excessive headspace did the primer and case display? How can you have that much pressure build up with just a primer popping when you have no bullet in the case to raise the pressures? I'm not quite understanding how the case displayed signs of excessive headspace in the absence of any pressure.

Good Shooting
RED
 
Handy, ALL primers in ALL firearms behave in that manner.

What happens is this:

First, remember that the primer actually sits on a shelf, with a flash hole punched in it. The primer flash (actually a small explosion) puts flame through the hole. It also exerts pressure on the shelf on which it sits. The pressure builds, and pops the primer back, where the recoil shield and/or firing pin nose stops it.

If this is a live round, all of this is a moot point. Why? Because in a millisecond or so after the primer flame enters the case, the main charge starts burning progressively. Pressure inside the case builds exponentially, expanding in what is essentially a closed container in all directions. The pressure continues to build until the weakest part of the container--the bond between the bullet and the case wall--is breached. The bullet now leaves the case, accepts the rifling, and is forced down the bore at unbelievable pressure and speed.

But, that's not all. Once the bullet leaves the case, the case itself is rammed backward by the burning powder charge, flat against the recoil shield. This does a rather effective job of slamming the spent primer right back into the case.

I still stand by my previous post. If the Glock were such an unsafe pistol, why do police departments by the gross use it now, especially in .40 SW? And, if this caliber were to blame, why not the 10mm Glock, which is nothing more than the .40 on steroids?

I stake my life on my Glock handguns, and will continue to do so.

Any round that will cause a Glock in good repair to kB, will also destroy any other pistol it is chambered in.
 
A primer backing out in a powderless load (or one in which the powder does not ignite) can be a sign of excess headspace.

When a gun is fired, the firing pin blow first drives the case forward as far as it can go. Then the primer ignites, and the pressure of the primer charge drives the primer back as far as it can go. In a normal firing, the powder then ignites and the pressure drives the case back over the primer and forces the metal of the primer back around the firing pin. This is why a fired primer seems to have a deep firing pin mark while a dud primer mark is shallow.

So if there is no powder charge and the primer backs out, it means there is space for it to do so. That space is the headspace. Whether it is excessive or not can best be determined with a headspace gauge. Just judging by the case is not adequate, since the case itself may be too short rather than the headspace being too long.

Jim
 
Out of battery

After reading the last thread on this topic, I went home and tried my best to get my G22 to close without going into battery. No matter how slowly and tenderly I ease the slide forward, with handloads or factory, full magazine or empty, it just won't do it. I can't KEEP it from going into battery.

Since this is a mass-produced item with tolerances, maybe something about the .40 case makes it possible with certain guns and certain ammo.

This pistol was scrupulosly clean when I tried this, but it's never happened at the range when dirty either.

My advice: don't worry about your Glock if you have tried this check and gotten the results I got. And if you handload, get a cartridge gauge and make real sure the case dimensions are correct.
 
I'll fire another primed case tonight. I'm willing to bet the breechface will keep the primer in place.

The excessive headspace noted was the amount of bulging and movement the primer displayed in the casing. The casing itself was unaffected.

For all of you that can't manage to get the Glock to go off out of battery, try again. Pull the slide 1/8" back. The barrel should be fractionally ahead of the guide rod end. This position is just before the barrel begins to swing down.
 
To Handy

I did as you suggested and went back and read some of the old posts. I am glad I did. I got a big chuckle out of Dawg23 post about using Blazer ammo at $6.60 a box because it was as cheap as reloads.

Poor Dawg he must either not shoot much or if he does he is really spending a lot of money unnecessariy. The last time I checked with my calculater I was still reloading 9mm for not much more that $1.85 a box!

P.S. I did try your test and will also try it again but my Glock 17 will not fire out of battery but I do not doubt your word because the quality control at Glock is pretty loose. I have seen a wide variation of workmanship in Glocks.
 
For all of you that can't manage to get the Glock to go off out of battery, try again. Pull the slide 1/8" back.
Click to expand...

You again? My goodness you must be boared.

Excuse me but if you have to "TRY" so hard to do this, doesn't it defeat the purpose of your post.

What pisses most of us off is you seem to think your silly examples are far superior to our years of experience, let alone the hundreds of thousands of "FACTORY" rounds that get fired every day by LEO training academies world wide.

The only one who takes your crusade seriously is you.
 
Leedesert,

If you don't like the topic, go away. Name calling isn't going to change my mind. Data will.

How many more years experience with firearms do you have than me?

I asked people to try again with some specifics because you can do it, so I'm surprised anyone would say you can't. There is nothing about the firing mechanism that prevents it within the stated range. Others report the same.

This isn't so much a "crusade" as an engineering investigation that anyone can take part in. I find it interesting, so I post on it. Most of the people I work with are about as imaginative and personable as you, so I go somewhere else for a little thoughtful discussion.

Pardon me for not blindly accepting the word of thousands of LEO's worldwide. (Does anyone besides the US use .40?) Where is this data?

I also find reasurances from Glock retailers about Glock function suspect. Did Ford accept the blame or did they put it on Firestone? I know what Firestone said. Consider your source.
 
My 2 Cents only

Did I miss a post saying that the test was conducted with the case coming out of the magazine and never fully chambered? An out of battery test must be done before the slide has ever gone fully into battery or it would not be valid. I am going to try this with my G20 - the .40 on steroids. Chambering and then backing it out of battery would not be a valid test.

I just did the test. Mine will drop the striker before the barrel has risen the last ~.015 into battery. The slide is still not fully forward but the barrel is certainly locked up with the slide/breechface.

Handy: try the test my way and observe where the barrel lockup is with respect to the slide. Mine is locked up with the slide still ~.06 from being fully forward. I have the KKM barrel and a second gen G20. Your mileage may vary. Valid testing must try to simulate real functioning. No offense/challenge to your model or results, but just my 2 cents worth.
 
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Cal4D4,
Even if slide is contacting the barrel locking surfaces, the pistol is not actually locked. The first 1/8" of slide barrel travel is necessary to allow pressures to drop adequately. If the pistol is fired without the slide full forward, it will unlock too quickly, when pressures are still too high. It may technically be locked, but not for long enough.

BigG,

The Glock has no disconnector. It has a connector. That engages in the last (approximately) 1/8" of forward slide travel.
 
Handy,

Accumulatively the years those who shoot Glock 40's far exceed your years on earth.

Cal 4D4 brings up the point that you keep avoiding. You have to make it do this to prove your point. The gun doesn't do it with out your intervention.
There are probably plenty of ways to force a Glock or any other gun to blow up. The question is whether it is happening during normal use and if and when it does, what is the cause.

Your high and might attitude is the problem. Your theory is in the minority and not supported by historical events, just your own speculation.

This places the burden on you to prove it, not us to prove you wrong.
We have years and years of KB free shooting to back us up while all you have is your attitude and back yard manipulations.
Most of the people I work with are about as imaginative and personable as you, so I go somewhere else for a little thoughtful discussion.
Click to expand...

They probably have better things to do than talk about stuff you've dreamed up.
As far as being personable, this isn't a kumbaya group hug, this is a thread posted by a guy that thinks his theory is worth more than years of testing and real world use.
 
Powderman - "Handy, ALL primers in ALL firearms behave in that manner


Ummm... I don't think so. I tried this with one of my HKs yesterday, it will not fire till the slide has made contact (and closed) with the barrel.

I will check my Burittos, and my Glock later.

leedesert - What pisses most of us off is you seem to think your silly examples are far superior to our years of experience, let alone the hundreds of thousands of "FACTORY" rounds that get fired every day by LEO training academies world wide.

The only one who takes your crusade seriously is you.

Wow - little emotional about this? Are you a major share holder in the company? Otherwise, consider that most of who use a device that causes an explosion in our hand would like to be informed about any safety related issue.

Secondly, Glock has already demonstrated a piss poor track record relating to safety from a few years ago.

I fully understand the cost accounting behind recalls and or fixes. It comes down to statistical analysis of accident rates, the severity, the cost associated with recalls, damage to image, lost sales, design modification, re-tooling, new advertising campaigns to win back market share - all weighed against what the company *could* be forced to pay out *if* a suit were sucessful.

I own a G27. To answer your question - I AM INTERESTED IN ANYTHING RELATED TO THE SAFETY OF ANY PRODUCT THAT I USE OR MAY USE.

What I would like to see - a thread that does not result in a bunch of name calling, or my gun maker is better than your gun maker, or Glock bashing in general.

What I would like to see is honest intelligent discussion about the issue. Glock for one reason or another - fairly or not - seems to have more KBs than any other manufacturer in all calibers beyond 9mm.

No question, the more that are sold - the higher the incidence rate. However, that alone does not dismiss the possibility that there may be a design flaw. If firing out of battery can occur - it is something that should be addressed by Glock.
 
Worry not... Leedesert has something out for everyone who doesn't like Glocks, and is willing to say so...

my first month here he jumped down my throat for saying I didn't like them, and callong them "combat tupperware", and he threatened to have me removed from the boards for it... (and for standing up to myself to him)

I do think intervening and PULLING the slide out of battery is not quite fair, but then again, a dirty chamber or a bent/warped or stiff mag could cause this to happen...

Being that I do not own a Glock, and won't (I rather dislike the trigger, and the lack of a true safety [read: pull trigger, go bang, no matter what, when loaded] are things that bother me)

so, please do conduct the tests, and tell us what you find, because it is interesting to some of us.
 
Mo_Zam_Beek,

Not emotional, just tired of chicken little running around in several forums.

Show me the statistics compared to other handguns that indicates Glock 40's are KB'ing due to Handy's theory. While your looking for that would you care for me to post the adresses for the hundreds of academies, shooting schools, departments, and individuals who after millions of factory rounds, have had little to no problems.

With Ford there were Explorer's rolling over left and right with people dieing. Do you have some hidden information about Glock's doing anything similar.

Most of us go with research, not speculation, when we chose to react to something.
 
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