Glock incompetence

2

224

New member
Now this *really* chaps my butt.

Recently my department transitioned from the Sig P220 to the Glock 21. This change was made due to that fact that Glock made us an offer of trading our Sigs for Glocks at no cost to us.

We've come to realize that the G21 should have a new title "jammamatic". When we made the transition we encountered numerous (read that as a lot) jams during training. We attributed this to shooter unfamiliarity and "new gun" syndrome. However, as the months wore on the faliures continued to mount, not decrease.

We finally narrowed it down to the magazine being the source of the trouble. We then contacted Glock and guess what the response was? " Yes we know, there's a design defect in the G21 magazine." Oh really !

Can you see why I'm chapped? Glock knowingly supplied us with guns that they knew were defective and never said a damned thing about it. In fact, they didn't say anything until we threw it in their face. As a consequence we now have hundreds of people out on the road carrying sidearms that they can't depend on. Glock obviously doesn't care. They've now sent us new prototype mags for evaluation which are supposed to work (we'll see). Of course they never mentioned the new mags until we found the problem. Then it was "uh, yeah".

Now all of you Glock fans don't take this as a condemnation of the Glock pistol in its entirety. I believe that the basic design is a sound one and the problem seems indicative of the G21.

Be that as it may, I doubt if my agency will ever give Glock another contract. I for one will never spend my money on anything associated with Glock. They've put my peoples lives at risk and they can burn in hell for it.
 
I've been shooting G21's for 10 years and this is the first I've heard of a "design defect" in the magazines. As a matter of fact, I've had zero failures in my Glock 21 after 1000+ rounds. Want to unload a few of those defective mags? I'd be happy to buy a few!

So, what department are you with?

[This message has been edited by BB (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
224,

This is news to me. I've owned a G21 for almost two years now and I've never heard about a problem with the magazines. The pistols been around for a lot of years and nowhere have I read about this.

In fact, I've probably run over 3000 rounds through mine, both factory and handloads, and it fed them all without a problem. Also, that shooting was done with two 13 round and 5 10 round mags, none of which were defective.

If your mags were the problem, and I'm not disputing that at all, then Glock must have changed the design recently. Your point is well taken, though, when you state that your people are out there with pistols upon which they can't depend.

If I were your chief, I'd be screaming at Glock to make this right.

Stay safe,

Nazman

[This message has been edited by Nazman (edited January 13, 2000).]
 
Wouldn't surprise me one bit. I love the Glock 19 but nothing made by man is perfect. I'm glad you and your fellow officers didn't experience any malfunctions in the field.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Anytime anyone offers you something for free, grab your wallet. Hindsight is 20/20 but when a deal sounds too good to be true it is too good to be true.

Grace is the only thing in life for free that won't let you down.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Definitely news to me. I've had a G21 for some time and have never experienced any problems with the mags. I have both mags that came with the firearm, and also 4 factory mags that I bought from J&G Sales. All have functioned flawlessly with whatever ammo I put through it.
Design flaw, or lapse in quality control? Glock may have known about the design flaw, if that's what it was, when the department called them, but they might not have known about it when the Glocks were sold to the department. Don't be so quick to throw 'em to the wolves.

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Times have changed, but the nature of man hasn't. That's why I always go to AA, "Alert and Armed". :)
 
Will beararms I couldn't agree more. As they say "there's no such thing as a free lunch". Since this decision was made we have a new Superintendent. The old one simply heard "new for used" and jumped on it. Not one of his better decisions in my opinion.

The problem seems to be the steel liner Glock has placed inside the magazine. Law enforcement types (not us) complained about the all plastic magazine apparently and asked for a steel re-enforcement. Supposedly for added strength, and added weight to assist the mag in dropping free of the pistol.

Glock didn't redesign the outside deminsions of the mag, so when they put in the steel sleeve this decreased the space inside the mag. However, the 13 round capacity stayed the same. Apparently this places more pressure/friction on the rounds and also adds compression to the spring (over compression apparently). We've disassembled mags and found springs that have the coils backed up on each other. Others have been twisted. The springs are supposed to have eleven coils on them, some of ours have been found to have only eight or nine. Quite a few mags had to be replaced immediately as the steel sleeve had started to spread apart at the rear of the mag, causing failures to feed.

The pistols themselves are fine but those mags, jeez. It doesn't do a lot for your confidence if you don't know if your weapon will work. Thank god for back-up guns :)
 
I can't imagine why you were sent old mags, the only problem I am aware with G21 mags was identified years ago....

Also, if you guys put 1/3rd as much oil on the Glocks as you probly did on your Sigs it will still be WAYYY too much.

Nashville metro had serious problems with their Glocks until the Armorers actually started following the lubrication guide in their manuals and the problems magically went away....
 
I am always amused by folks who speak with complete authority on subjects about which they supply incorrect information.

All Glock magazines are steel-lined. Always have been. I've put 20,000+ rounds through my G21's, with no problems with either non-fully metal lined (lined on three sides) or fully metal lined (lined on four sides) magazines.

The problems was with the follower, not with the magazine body.

Of course, there's always the distinct possibility that those guys in San Bernadino were limp-wristing.(That's a pretty common attribute of CA men)

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Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!


[This message has been edited by WalterGAII (edited January 17, 2000).]
 
I have 1000's of rounds through my G21, with complete reliability. I have post, and two kinds of pre ban magazines. What could have changed on LEO mags?
 
ROTFLMAO!

Anyway---

As not4ed above, there was a problem identified with G21 mags a long while back, it was a follower problem, it was fixed.
Over the year's, Glock has had MANY changes in the various follower designs. In fact, it is a follower problem that is causing the delay in the release of the G36's.

As far as I know, however, no one has identified the problem causing linp wristed men in CA....

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-Essayons
 
That's not true Walter, early Glock mags had no liners in them. That's why when you see Glock mags advertised either new or used they say Drop-Free. The drop free ones have the liners, the old ones didn't. Glock purposely designed the mags to begin with without the liner so the mags would swell slightly and that way if someone accidently hit the mag release, the mag wouldn't go south. Then the American market bitched about the mags not falling free, so the liners were put in and those are the drop-free ones. It's easy to tell which is which just by looking at he holes in the back of the mag. If you see a silver/steel outline, it's a drop-free if not, it's a early one.

Brian
 
Negative, Walter. Only the magazines for sale in the United States market are steel lined. The magazines meant for use by the European military are non-lined and designed not to fall free.

The non-fall-free is a requested feature by most European militaries.

The magazines for sale to civilians in Europe may or may not be the non-fall-free type, given the tendencies I've seen in the past, I would guess that the civilian magazines are probably of the non-lined variety.

LawDog
 
All Glock magazines are steel-lined. Always have been....non-fully metal lined (lined on three sides) or fully metal lined (lined on four sides) magazines.

WalterGAII is correct. All Glock mags are metal lined. As he states the standard type has three metal sides and the fall free four metal sides. I don't know about Europe but the magazines that Glock distributes in Latin America are the four metal sides variety.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Very interesting. It's two (Walter, Tec) against two (BB and Law Dog) right now. I put my money on BB and Law Dog, though I'm not entirely sure. My understanding is that original Glock mags were non-drop-free (as they SHOULD be), and had steel only at the feed lips. But maybe 3 of the sides inside are lined. I don't think so, though, or the mag would not swell when full as designed. I'll get out my G21 mags when I get home (got four hi-caps, at least two are non-drop-free)
 
All Glock mags are metal lined. the only difference is what was previously posted, FML and NFML. The "non drop free" are NFML, which allowed the magazine to "bulge" just enough to bind the magazine in the mag well when loaded. It will drop free when empty. "drop free" mags are FML, which provided additional support to keep the mag from bulging, hence "drop free".
 
OK, this got me curious enough to go get the gun and spare mags, empty some mags, and examine them closely under a 50w halogen desk lamp on full power.

I'll back up what Dave AA said, and expand on it a little.

G19. Three mags, two drop free, one not. The drop-free's (df) say "9mm" at the top on the side with the holes, the non-drop-free (ndf)says nothing. I think when I got the gun, it came with the ndf, and the 17, 18 (not to US civilians), and 19 were the only choices, so putting caliber on the mag wasn't as important as it is now.

df is fully metal lined, i.e. all four sides of the mag tube have a metal lining for the entire length of the side.

ndf is lined at the primer end and along the sides up to the edge of the brass. Front of the mag at the bullet tip and the front 20% of the sides of the mag tube (alongside the bullet part of the cartridge) are not metal lined.

OK?
 
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