Glock 17 vs Beretta 92FS in reliability

"Even the Border Patrol is rethinking their choice and looking at Glocks."

Could you provide specific information for this? Don't they allo the use of the SIG Sauer P229 as well. INS specifically went with Beretta and SIG Sauer because wanted a DAO pistols.

"Beretta's are also not known for the accuracy."

Beg to differ. They're among the most accurate pistols I've ever shot.

"They're big and bad looking but you need bigger hands for it."

Agreed, the small handed are best served with a single stack auto, like a SIG Sauer P225.

"The only reason the US Army chose the Beretta is because it was cheaper..."

True.

"...had an external safety..."

This was not an issue. If it was then it would have been included in the requirements.

"...and they had a plant in the US..."

No, Beretta built a plant in Maryland as per contract requirements.

"...otherwise the Sig P226 outperformed it..."

I agree. And in the same way the P226 outperformed the Glock 17 at the British Amry trials for a new sidearms to replace the venerable Browning HiPower.

I think both the Beretta and Glock 17 are fine pistols. I'd give the SIG Sauer P226 a hard look, however.


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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Guns are like cars, I may like one that you don't. All of the above guns are good buys. All have had their problems over the years too.

And I agree, with familiarity, you can shoot any of the above with good accuracy.

But there are more and more Glocks that are hitting the 100K mark throughout the country.
My old 1986 Glock 17 has at least 40K rounds while I have owned it and I don't know how many rounds it shot in the first 12 years of its life before me.

100K is not that much. All you have to do is shoot competitively - some fella's do 1K rounds a week in IPSC and IDPA and in practice. Progressive reloading on Dillons is more popular than ever.

Other than old BHPs, what other gun other than a Glock would you buy used? Okay, I also bought a 1984 HK P7 PSP hard chromed - it's sweet.

But when it comes to durability and reliability, only one gun goes to the top of most people's list - the Glock.

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The Seattle SharpShooter
 
The Beretta is a good gun, but in the terms of being better I'd say GLOCK. Glocks are world known for their relibilty, plus they weigh a lot lighter than a Beretta.

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Trespassers Will Be Shot
Survivors Will Be Shot Again
 
I vote for the glock, very nice, reliable as they get. I have never had a prblem with either my 17 or 22, and they just are just so ugly they're cute :)
 
G17 is more reliable though 92 is close enough to 100%. G17 has better accuracy and more recoil, 92 doesn't work as well with whimpy ammo like UMC but is pretty good for slow fire. G17 is also easier to maintain. 92 mags are cheaper. I have both but trust G17 more though both are good enough.
 
I called a friend of mine who was, for a long time, one of the armorers of a very large LEO dept, which issued Beretta 92FS pistols to all its officers. (He's now retired, and a professional gunsmith.) Asked him about the "locking block" problem?

He said that he and the other armorer had seen only two failures of the locking block. That's out of approximately 9,000 Berettas. He personally had fired 70,000 rounds through his WITHOUT ever cleaning it, other than to lubricate it with Break Free. He had no problem with it whatsoever.

I had 23,000 +/- rounds through mine without a hitch, but I did keep it clean and lubricated. A friend of mine had 37,000 rounds through his, without a problem, and he too, kept it clean and lubricated. I know of other "tests" just like these, with the same results, but no need to list them.

I've read before, and the two armorers verified the story, that the SEALs who blew the slides on Berettas were using some very high pressure submachinegun ammo.

We all know that quality control can and does sometimes fail, in mfg of ANY product. Perhaps those Beretta pistols that have been mentioned above, which failed, were the result of poor quality control????

Although I'm a longtime Colt .45 auto fan, I would bet my life any day on my Beretta 92FS. It is imperative, however, to keep that slide and locking block, lightly lubricated. Too many people forget that.

FWIW. J.B.
 
Jay: Interesting post...I'm happy for your success with your Model 92...I'm not happy with mine! Appreciate the tip on cleaning and lubricating...apparently, after 23 years of service in US Army Ranger Bn and Special Forces Groups, I somehow missed that. Did your friend REALLY fire 70k without ever cleaning, and if so, why? 9000 Berettas with only 2 locking block failures suggests not very heavy use on the part of that department's officers. Which police dept? It has to be a larger metro area than, say, Atlanta. NY City doesn't issue the 92. LA? Chicago? Miami?(nope...Glocks!) Our locking block failures have NOTHING to do with slide failure. That hasn't happened in quite a while. Only locking blocks...very frequently (like every week of the year). We use our pistols a lot. They don't last. Maybe it IS due to poor quality control. Unfortunately, Uncle Sugar bought a hell of a lot of bad pistols...never had this kind of problem with the 1911A1. Never had this kind of problem with the 9mm pistols of our allies either (P-38, BHP, H&K, CZ, Glock, SIG, etc.). Never had a problem with very high pressure SMG 9mm either, 'cause the Finns are the only large military that loaded any for significant use (for the obsolete and no longer issued Soumi SMG). Unfortunately, I have had to bet my life on my Beretta (some operations are pistol only). USN SEALs saw the light early and ditched theirs for SIGs. We will soon do the same. What I post about the M9 isn't second or third hand...its right there in MY hand, baby. Still not impressed with a weapon that won't last long enough for the operator to maintain a VERY high level of handgun proficiency. It's an OK LEO/ housegun though. Okay...Come get me Mother... I'm through (with my rant).
 
Something else to keep in mind anent locking block failures is that they've all happened with the old square-cut blocks. The newer radiused blocks haven't had any failures, AFAIK.
 
Chindo18Z, thanks for the info re your use of the Beretta. Yep, you had the right initials. L.A. but it's the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. The armorer was conducting a "stress test" just to see if it would fail. Also, if something had happened to it, he could just pull another new one out and keep on cranking. The Armorey for LASD is directly beneath one of the depts' firing ranges, so all he and the other armorer had to do was walk up a few steps and blaze away, any time they wanted.

The regs there on qualification (although they may have now changed) were that each deputy had to qual at least once a month, 30 rounds, timed turning targets at 25 yards.

Then they also have Continuous Field Training which requires each dep, once a year, to go to one of the LASD's large ranges and run multiple target courses, barricades, shotgun/pistol courses, day and night firing, etc. A dep will fire about 450/500 rounds of 9mm during that day/night.

Each cadet going through the LASD Academy, will fire at the very least, 3,000 rounds of 9mm through his/her Beretta and is strongly encouraged to go the range, off duty, and fire more for practice, with dept issue ammo. LASD also trains cadets from other smaller P.D.s in their Academy. A lot of ammo is burned up at LASD. I.e., LASD buys 7,000,000 rounds of 9mm each year, Federal Ball and Winchester (Black Talon, or as they now call it, Ranger SXT, For LEO Only).

The figures I quoted in my first post were Berettas being shot by LASD Weapons Training Instructors. I know they are correct.

I am still a fan of the Colt .45ACP, as it has saved my bacon, but have no problems with the Beretta. I can only vouch for that Dept., and have no idea about what's happened with other Depts and outfits, such as your's. Maybe we just got lucky and got a good batch.

Shot some Swedish subgun ammo once, through a Beretta and a Walther P38, and ran only one mag through each. I KNEW that stuff was hot and hard on the pistols!

By the way, given your military career, perchance, did you ever run into a Ranger officer named Dennis Foley? He did four tours in Vietnam, worked with S.F. during his fourth tour. He and I used to shoot together at a club in L.A. Best regards. J.B.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will Beararms:

I believe that the Glock is durable however, you hear about more Kabooms with a Glock than any other handgun by far. Will the Glock outlast the Beretta? Probably. Will the Beretta provide a reaonable service life with normal care and the avoidance of excessive amounts of +P? Yes.
[/quote]

I know of no verified incidents of kabooms in a 9mm Glock, so I don't think this should be a factor in evaluating 9mm pistols.

OK, so I own a Glock 17, and a Glock 26, but I'm not biased! :)
 
Assuming new examples of both guns, you could quite possibly grow old and die waiting for either one to jam on you. The Glock would win in ruggedness, but unless you spend a lot of time running over your pistols with a truck, you'd never notice. The Beretta might be a smidge more accurate, but unless your middle name is "RansomRest" not to any degree you'd notice. Pick the one you like...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Tamara:

As a matter of fact, my middle name is Ransomrest. Yeah, that's the ticket: William Ransomrest Beararms! ;)

I do enjoy the nature of the short recoil the 92FS renders but you are correct in pointing out that we are splitting hairs here. The beauty of the 92FS is that most will find it very easy to become proficient with in the accuracy department.

The Glock is a magnificent weapon and more durable but I am not fond of the trigger and I have found it harder to get used to. For those Glockers out there let me repeat, the Glock is a tougher weapon and as such in the long term, more reliable.

If the 92FS is carried alot and shot a little, the reliability is not an issue. If you are a member of an elite force that shoots excessively or a competition shooter, look at something else besides the 92FS.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Jay: O.K...just check'in. I sometimes get
on my soapbox (especially when lots o' facts and figures get thrown about). My sneaking suspicion is that there is something terribly wrong with the technical execution of the M9 MILSPEC contract. It seems like most PDs don't have the problem the military
weapons display. Once again, I'll have to agree with Will BearArms (his later post). I'll even admit that my personal M9 has been drilling targets without a stutter all week long. I just get pissed knowing that the damn thing will let go again. I'm on my second M9 this year and my third locking block for the same 12 months. Sorry, but I don't know Dennis Foley. He may have been before my time unless he served in the late 70's [2/75th INF(RGR) 77-80]. BTW, I'd much rather be carrying a 1911. Bis später...
 
Carried a Beretta for 3 years in the service. Never had a problem and these pistols were abused. I was so impressed I bought one and have been shooting it for 4 years without a problem.

Not much experience with Glocks.

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"Some people spend an entire liftime wondering if they made a difference. Marines don't have that problem."
Semper Fi
 
Chindo18Z, again, thanks for the info. That surely is strange about the failures of your, and the other's Berettas. Have you been able to keep a rough count of the number of rounds you've fired between cranking up a new (or repaired) one, and another failure?? As you said, maybe there is something within the mfg of the Military's pistols, from the factory, that is flawed. (???)

Dennis Foley joined the Army in 1962, later went to O.C.S., then jump school, then to the 82nd, then to Vietnam. Came back home, went to Ranger School, then back to Vietnam. He did a lot of LRP duty, serving as a platoon leader with Major David Hackworth's Tiger Forces. Badly wounded, but after the "repair job," he went back for another tour. Then later, worked with S.F. over there. He retired as a Col., in 1982, but I never asked him what his last duty station was.

He is a good friend of Ret. Col. David Hackworth, and is mentioned several times in Hackworth's book, "About Face." Hackworth saved Foley's life, in Vietnam, when he was badly wounded, so Dennis told me. Foley also wrote a book about his men in Vietnam, the LRPs, called, "Special Men: A LRP's Recollections." Interesting book.

Who knows? Maybe some of the older Rangers in your outfit knew him. Best regards. J.B.
 
92FS without question

I've been at the range firing away 3 times, when different Glocks of different caliber have experienced FTF, 2 repeatedly. I also have a friend with DC Police. There was a Glock 'voluntary replacement program' a while back in which several hundred pistols were replaced by Glock. complaints ranged from magazines falling apart, loaded & unloaded, sites falling off, slide blew off, and many more.

I've put over 17,000 rounds through my 92FS without trouble. I've shot the Beretta and the Glock back to back, as well as the Beretta & the Sig. The sig had the worst trigger of any pistol I've held, and I verified it wasn't just that pistol by going to a gun shop thereafter (both were 226). If I had to trust my life to one handgun, it would be the 92FS Beretta.

Smurfslayer
 
Reliability and durability are two different things. To me, reliability is the likelihood that a gun that is not needing repair will function correctly, possibly including adverse environments. Durability is a measurement of how long a gun will function before needing repair or replacement of parts. The original question here pertained to reliability, not durability. It's hard for me to imagine a gun more reliable than the Beretta because they never misfeed in my experience and in the reports I've read, and certainly never fail to eject with the open slide. It is not uncommon to read where the Beretta will happily feed rounds that jammed other pistols. I haven't read nearly as much about Glock or have any experience with them, but I don't know how they can be better than perfect.

The Beretta seems to me to be a very underrated and unfairly criticized gun due to resentment of its selection by the military. And, of course, one of its strong suits has been negated by the limits on magazine size. Many years ago, when I took the NRA's Basic Pistol Course, the instructor provided about 20 different devices for us to sample at the range. I was amazed at how much smoother in operation the Beretta was than everything else I handled. To me, its strong points are reliability, durability (I don't shoot 5000 rounds/week with +P+ like the Seals), capacity (pre-ban), safety (I like the decocker/safety), accuracy (long sight radius), smoothness of operation, and mild recoil.

Also, from what I've read of the U.S. military's device trials, it is a significant omission to say that the "Beretta was selected because it was the cheapest." A more complete statement would be to say the "Beretta was selected because it was the cheapest of the manufacturers whose guns passed the qualification tests." Beretta & Sig were the only two manufacturers to complete the tests satisfactorily in some of the trials.

Silver Bullet 1719: Sorry, I didn't know there was already a Silver Bullet when I chose my name. I'll see if I can change mine.
 
Seems everyone has a lot to say about how bad the Berettas are and how great the GLOCKs are.

I have a few questions for jtduncan and others:

Does anyone seriously think the U.S. army would outfit its troops with subpar hanguns? (I know, I know, price plays a factor in the decision, but you can't attribute it all to price as so many here are quick to do. Lorcins are cheap to and I don't see the military issuing those.)

Does anyone have quotes, specific info, references on how the Border Patrol is "rethinking" their Berettas? Last I heard they were tickled to death with them. If anyone's read about the testing they put their test guns through, I'd say they'd be stupid to rethink their choice. I remember a particular part of the write-up that stated the Berettas were MANY (don't remember exact number) times more reliable than the closest competitor. How could that be possible when we all know that all GLOCKs are perfect??

If the SIG226 outperformed it during the army trials, why did it not win out with the Border Patrol testing? Surely SIG would have had an entry??

What is this about Berettas rusting?? That's a first for me. Do you know what their frames are made from? I've seen a lot of Berettas, and I've yet to see rust on one of them.

As far as Beretta's accuracy, anyone ever heard of Ernest Langdon? Talk to Rob Leatham about that, maybe you'll get a clue. They are plenty accurate. In fact I'd put any out of the box Beretta against any out of the box GLOCK (ransom of course) and put a lot of money on the Beretta.

There are plenty of used Berettas in gunshops for the same reason there are plenty of used and refurbished GLOCKs (anyone who says there aren't plenty of used and refurb GLOCKs in the shops doesn't go to the shops I go to). By the way, why is GLOCK refurbing their guns if they are good for 200,000+ rounds?? I'd venture to say there are far more GLOCKs used in the shops than I've ever seen Berettas. The reason for the large amounts of Berettas (I guess there are, I don't see them) AND GLOCKs is the fact that evertime a new police chief or armorer shows up the department decides it has to get new weapons. You all know as well as I do that PDs and state police change their attitudes about firearms as quickly as the wind changes directions.

Since when was GLOCK the industry standard for reliability? Since you proclaimed it to be so?

H&K has secured a contract with DEA for a large number of USP compacts. I guess they didn't get the word about the industry standard??

Those who choose their firearms based on what federal, state, and local agencies use make me laugh. Sounds like you choose the GLOCK because hey, all the police do it so it must be right. Here's a news flash, most police officers today (I know there are exceptions here on this board) are lucky to know which end the bullet comes out and haven't a clue how to handle an auto. I've seen many at the local range and boy do they scare me. If I were to hand them a Beretta, I'd bet many wouldn't know what to do with it (because, hey-what is this lever for?)

As for jtduncan's original question, I have one as well. How many GLOCKs go 200,000 rounds without a hiccup? If you are gullible enought to believe that there are lots of GLOCKs that go 200,000+ without a malfunction, then send me you credit card number and I'll send you a free magazine about how great GLOCKs are. I'll mail it right after I get that number.

As far as being best suited to pistol whipping, I'll put my stock Beretta 92 up against any stock GLOCK you choose any day of the week. I can bet you wouldn't like the outcome.

GLOCKs are the most overhyped pistol on the market. GLOCK lovers are quick to point out the weaknesses of other handguns, but won't admit to a single weakness of the GLOCK.

GLOCK lovers will spew some long list of agencies that use their favorite handgun (some in obvious error) as proof of it being superior to all others, then berate someone who chooses the Beretta even though the most powerful military in the world issues them to their soldiers. See any hipocrasy here?

:barf: :barf: :barf:

Of course everything I've posted here IS GARBAGE, because everyone who really knows, knows that GLOCKS are the one true weapon, there can be no other.
 
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